First, find out what isn't true…

October 24, 2009

Is there a danger of Sacred Fact being drowned out on the Guardian’s Comment is Free – CiF ?


…It’s actually quite simple. If it isn’t the “acknowledged” Sovereign Territory of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt or Israel,
then it’s a territory of Palestine…

Shortlink http://wp.me/pDB7k-h3

Why am I writing this? In order to have a balanced discourse on the Israel/Palestinian issue, it is imperative that well sourced and factual counter argument be given the chance to be heard. Apart from the various slings and arrows and opinions of posters and contributors, the casual reader ought be given the chance to see what is actually said in documents, law, UNSC resolutions rather than after they’ve been put through the Ziofier and spammed endlessly.

The machinations of the UN are quite complex and ought be explained in concise and understandable terms, not just presented as an Anti-Israel organization bent on the destruction of Israel. Propaganda ought be shown for what it is. CiF and the Guardian surely owe it to their readers that a moderate voice, with a basic understanding of the Laws, UN Charter et al, be heard.

So, is there danger that CiF will be flooded with propaganda in support of Israel’s expansionist policies and illegal activities? Can moderate voices, factual information and rational counter argument be silenced? I know I am! Regularly.

By their own admissions and actions, the apologists for Israel’s illegal expansionism and illegal activities group together, issue reports on CiF commentaries, conduct mail outs advising people and encouraging them to counter anything which might be construed as Anti-Israel.

How do I know? I subscribe to some under another name in order to find out what they’re up to. Others, like CiFWatch are just too blatant and stupid for their own good, actually undermining their own hard work by the shear idiocy of their accusations and admissions. HERE”S ONE BY A CiF CONTRIBUTOR!!!Admitting to concerted efforts to have folk banned.

Ironically they complain about being banned themselves. To this end, they appear to be willing to stop at nothing. If they blatantly lie in their posts on CiF & CiFWatch, what’s to stop them from lying in their complaints to moderators especially if over worked moderators don’t look closely. Nothing!

Are these people devious? Yes. Most certainly. I’ve only kept one example of the handiwork of an apologist for Israel’s illegal activities at work on TALK International, combined alas, with moderation that begs enhancement. (I do not envy the position BTW). I had been posting as ‘Some1’ and received the following warning …

From: …….@guardian.co.uk [mailto:…….@guardian.co.uk]
Sent: Saturday, 5 August 2006 1:26 AM
To: {…….}
Subject: GU Talk Warning (Some1)
This is your first warning. We are issuing 1 warning per user before banning people permanently.
Regards
User Help
Guardian Unlimited
119 Farringdon Road
London EC1R 3ER

Some1 – 08:34am Aug 4, 2006 GMT

How do you tell if a Jew is lying – his lips are moving. For some reason, anything that comes from Israel is a LIE. But anything that Hizbullah, Iran, and Hamas say or print is GOSPEL!

I immediately searched for this alleged breach of the guidelines and found the following

Israel/Lebanon Conflict Thread

100reader – 01:53pm Aug 4, 2006 GMT (#408 of 503)

Some1 – 08:34am Aug 4, 2006 GMT

How do you tell if a Jew is lying – his lips are moving. For some reason, anything that comes from Israel is a LIE. But anything that Hizbullah, Iran, and Hamas say or print is GOSPEL!

A) A poster had taken 100reader’s sarcastic, strawman remark, deleted 100reader from it and attributed it to me. Very likely 100reader, judging by a subsequent post advising me I’d need a new user name.
B) It is not in quotes. Not mine. Doesn’t closely resemble anything I’d say.
C) If one reads carefully, it reveals itself by the second two sentences in that single, unquoted, paragraph… “For some reason, anything that comes from Israel is a LIE. But anything that Hizbullah, Iran, and Hamas say or print is GOSPEL!”
1) It shows a sarcastic remark by 100Reader, prefaced with “How do you tell if a Jew is lying – his lips are moving.”
2) I’d never claimed or written anything of the sort. 100reader was of course constructing a strawman.

I attempted to explain this deception to …….@guardian. To no avail. Correspondence went un-answered. I was later banned, very likely on a similar completely false premise.

It was the type of tactic commonly used in posts by the advocates of Israel’s illegal expansionist policies. Cherry picking, replacing words, mis-quoting, false accusations, outright lying and concerted efforts to have posters banned and of course, completely ignoring factual material and posting the same fallacies over and over. Spam. Show them a document proving their fallacy is a blatant lie and they just ignore it and carry on regardless. Hard core denial by a hard core of organized Anti-Cifers

On the other hand there are no organized Pro-CiF groups that I know of. No email lists, no concerted efforts by groups of people trying to get the apologists for Israeli expansionism banned. I have never been invited to join or subscribe to any alternative to the likes of Giyus with about 40,000 users and numerous supporters, CifWatch, the Olivebranch, Harry’s place. There is a very real danger of it becoming a one sided battle.

In any one sided battle, the chances of the more powerful side drowning out the other is always a possibility and of course the desired result. In respect to the Israel/Palestinian issue, Cif could, I dare say is, fast becoming devoid of facts. Like TALK International, a place where silly, repetitious, sniping bun fights are commonplace. Boring to the reader, non-informative and for the most part non-factual, which is of course is also a tactic. If you can’t win the argument, turn the dialogue into a moshpit that no one can be bothered reading.

As talknic there were some 5,300 posts on Cif. None abusive, none contained any hatred, bigotry, Antisemitism. To the best of my knowledge, none contravened the CiF guidelines. If I went off topic it was only in response to where some other poster had, usually with an oft repeated propaganda mantra. Spam.

I’ve never used Islamist sources, hate or Antisemitic sites, only citing, as I have here, mainly irrefutable and reliable Jewish sources such as the Israeli Govt web site, the Jewish virtual library, the UN and university repositories for documents.

With correspondence going un-answered, re-registering and continuing to post is the only form of protest one has and one hopes in the brief time the information remains, someone will learn something other than the endless propaganda. It is of course purged as soon as someone complains. Not that there is ever anything to actually complain against, nor has there ever been. I’m guessing it goes like this. ‘This person is the much banned ‘talknic’, a well known Anti-semite’

However, nothing I’ve ever written on CiF comes even close to Antisemitism, hatred, bigotry or abuse. In 42 years of addressing the I/P issue at public forums, meetings, letters to the editors and now with the advent of the likes of CiF, no-one has ever been able to show anything remotely Antisemitic from what must now be hundreds of thousands of words I’ve written and spoken on the subject. The only complaint my opponents actually have is, they cannot honestly answer the questions I ask. I don’t even make it on CiFWatch’s pathetic Anti-semite list!!!

In real life discussions I’ve been ejected from meetings, threatened, had my walls sprayed with graffiti, refused service, hate mailed (constantly). One hand written letter shoved under my door advised me not to sit near the window. I’ve been covered in the spittle sprayed from bug eyed, red faced denialistas, shaking in rage, screaming their obscenities and predictable list of what they wish I was, but am not. The only way apologists for Israel’s illegal actions can ‘counter’ irrefutable knowledge from verifiable and reliable sources, is to ignore, scream over the top or try to deny access to the discussion by making a false accusations. I dare say the moderators had hundreds of complaints about Talknic, in the hope that one, like the example above, would slip through, resulting in a banning.

Meanwhile all I have ever done is speak in the hope that folk will be educated as to what actually has taken place, what laws actually have been broken and what laws actually do stand, without changing anything. I do this IN SUPPORT of the Sovereign Israel that was created as a homeland/state for all Jewish people. Israel should, like all UN Member states, at the very least be law abiding. That is all I ask.

So how does one address the imbalance of organized groups against CiF, vs no organized group at all for CiF? How does one get re-instated in order that a moderate voice with factual information be heard? Correspond? No point if your correspondence goes in the spam bin. Write about it as I have done here? Of course.

Continue to be a squeaky door where “Facts are…meant to be… Sacred”

Both! Because I can! And will.

Advertisements

October 19, 2009

Watching the hypocrisy where “the voice of opponents no less than that of friends has a right to be heard”


The CifWatch banner proudly extols
“the voice of opponents no less than that of friends has a right to be heard”

Unfortunately at hypocrisy central, the silencing of Talknic takes precedence. Nary a sign of the posts I’ve offered. Are they that pi$$ weak?

As for their ‘badge of honor’. What is ‘honorable’ about being booted off a tawk bored for being a bunch of ghastly, lying, toilet humorist, bigots?

CLASSIC FIB from the lil’ CiFWatchers

October 18, 2009 at 3:54 am
The Anti Discriminator

This fresh in from CIF
RecurringDisaster.

##Berchmans, deleted HUNDREDS OF TIMES because of anti-Semitic posts marked as such by even The Guardian moderators:##

Who are they trying to kid? CiF give no reasons for deleting posts.

October 4, 2009

Watching CifWatch lower themselves, resorting to toilet humour….


Unable to actually quote anything I’ve ever said said that fits their criteria, the folk who are unable to honestly address difficult questions on CiF or here. The same people who declare on their web site : “The voice of opponents no less than that of friends has a right to be heard”, proudly announce …..
Time for Some Toilet Humor…Ever wondered why certain Guardianistas are able to spend so much time online talknicing out of their backsides…”

The irony of the ‘humor’ they’ve chosen to exhibit, their childish vindictiveness and choice of words, seems to escape them. It serves Israel how exactly? Who’d want to be associated with such people, let alone believe anything they have to say? If they’re representative of Israel, Israelis or Jewish folk, do they realize what kind of an ugly, spitefull, picture they’re presenting?

AKUS (re-appeared recently on CiF as Akusia ?), who is unable to produce a map of Israel’s Sovereign territory, because no doubt it’s too embarrassing, bravely leads the comments


October 4, 2009 at 12:32 am
AKUS
Indeed!
Typical outback humor!! And then, when the mods get into action – all those long, long, nitpicking comments just flushed down the toilet….
Free Eora! The Cadigals will rise again!!


October 4, 2009 at 1:25 pm
Chas N-B
Superb! Shows they are going through the motions and that it’s good that CifWatch is flushing them out. I love how you guys cut the crap.
CifWatch: wiping clean the marble and smashing the cistern!
(Enough already.)

Indeed. Enough already to show folk who it is running off to the mods in what appears now as a self confessed and concerted effort to have folk banned, rather than addressing the points those folk might raise. Which makes their credo “The voice of opponents no less than that of friends has a right to be heard” seem rather incongruous and more than a tad shallow.

Enough already to show how un-aware AKUS is of his own transparency, blabbering on in ignorance about people with whom I have a close relationship and who he claimed were wiped out.

Enough already to show Chas N-B’s ‘toilet’ vocabulary has him in appropriate company.

How sad. In a world where real Antisemitism actually exists and should by all means be revealed, CiFWatch is busy revealing it’s adherents to be nothing more than hypocrites and sad little gutter snipes.

September 28, 2009

The Guardian’s “Comments are Free” says “Facts are Sacred”. Lies remain. Facts are purged.


I recently came across this post by Keo2008 on CiF. It is rife with blatant lies. My reply to it, giving the facts of the matter was purged in the process of silencing Talknic (aka inreferenceto). Now, only the lies remain, spreading like filth from an overflowing sewer.

Keo2008 28 Sep 09, 9:54am

” what the Palestinians/Arabs were asking for in 1947-8.

1) They refused to talk to UNSCOP, so they actually refused to make their case to the UN body they knew would be making recommendations to the UN. If their proposals were reasonable, as you imply, whyb did they throw away the chance to influence the UN vote?.”

Interested to see if they did try to influence the vote, I went first where the facts should surely be truly represented. On the Israeli Government website.

There we find what the Israeli Government puts up as the Recording of UN vote on Resolution 181 – 29 November 1947. The only Arab state included on their version of the recording is Yemen (against).

It seemed a little short for an UNGA vote. So I then cross referenced this information with another reliable source of documents, Avalon Law at Yale University UNGA Resolution 181. Which clearly states, at the bottom of the document:


Adopted at the 128th plenary meeting: In favour: 33 – Australia, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Byelorussian S.S.R., Canada, Costa Rica, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, France, Guatemala, Haiti, Iceland, Liberia, Luxemburg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Sweden, Ukrainian S.S.R., Union of South Africa, U.S.A., U.S.S.R., Uruguay, Venezuela.

Against: 13 – Afghanistan, Cuba, Egypt, Greece, India, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Yemen.

Abstained: 10 Argentina, Chile, China, Colombia, El Salvador, Ethiopia, Honduras, Mexico, United Kingdom, Yugoslavia.


The Israeli Government web site have edited out the majority of the votes from their ‘record’ing. Is it any wonder people like our friend Keo2008 spread mis-information, when this is what they’re fed.

Snr Keo2008’s post went on:

Keo2008 28 Sep 09, 9:54am

2) Because of course their proposals were not reasonable at all. They demanded a Single-state solution in which all Palestinians would have the vote, but only those Jews who could prove they (orn their ancestors) were living in Palestine before 1918. That was of course a tiny minority of the Jews in Palestine. The other Jews would be deemed as stateless and liable to be expelled

3) By contrast all Arabs living in Palestine in 1947 would get the vote- even though many of them had only moved into Palestine a few years before.

That is the reality of the Palestinian position in 1947. No wonder the Zionists rejected it. No wonder the UN rejected it. And no wonder the Palestinians didnt even dare put their case to the UN.

Smelling rat by now, I looked up their demands, again from Avalon Law at Yale University. The Pact of the League of Arab States, March 22, 1945. In particular what they had to say about Palestine


ANNEX ON PALESTINE
At the end of the last Great War, Palestine, together with the other Arab States, was separated from the Ottoman Empire. She became independent, not belonging to any other State.

The Treaty of Lausanne (4) proclaimed that her fate should be decided by the parties concerned in Palestine.

Even though Palestine was not able to control her own destiny, it was on the basis of the recognition of her independence that the Covenant of the League of Nations determined a system of government for her.(5)

Her existence and her independence among the nations can, therefore, no more be questioned de jure than the independence of any of the other Arab States.

Even though the outward signs of this independence have remained veiled as a result of force majeure, it is not fitting that this should be an obstacle to the participation of Palestine in the work of the League.

Therefore, the States signatory to the Pact of the Arab League consider that in view of Palestine’s special circumstances, the Council of the League should designate an Arab delegate from Palestine to participate in its work until this country enjoys actual independence.


(4) Here, we need to see The Treaty of Lausanne For which I use the Brigham Young University Library, where we find


The Treaty of Lausanne. SECTION II . NATIONALITY. ARTICLE 30.
Turkish subjects habitually resident in territory which in accordance with the provisions of the present Treaty is detached from Turkey will become ipsofacto, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred.

We also find a map a map Which shows us very clearly an area marked PALESTINE. A territory not TRANSFERRED to any state.


So again, the Arab States have only expressed what is in the actual treaty. (the British Mandate over Palestine was an administrative role (occupation). Palestine was not ‘transferred’ to Britain)

Onwards to note (5) and art. 22 of the League of Nations Covenant


(5) See art. 22 of the Covenant and accompanying notes printed in Foreign Relations of the United States: The Paris Peace Conference, 1919, vol. XIII, pp.



The Covenant of the League of Nations
ARTICLE 22.
To those colonies and territories which as a consequence of the late war have ceased to be under the sovereignty of the States which formerly governed them and which are inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the modern world, there should be applied the principle that the well-being and development of such peoples form a sacred trust of civilisation and that securities for the performance of this trust should be embodied in this Covenant.

The best method of giving practical effect to this principle is that the tutelage of such peoples should be entrusted to advanced nations who by reason of their resources, their experience or their geographical position can best undertake this responsibility, and who are willing to accept it, and that this tutelage should be exercised by them as Mandatories on behalf of the League.

The character of the mandate must differ according to the stage of the development of the people, the geographical situation of the territory, its economic conditions and other similar circumstances.

Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone. The wishes of these communities must be a principal consideration in the selection of the Mandatory.


Thus far, the Arab States have only re-iterated the League of Nations Covenant, which by any standard of decency, are honorable and noble aspirations and also The Treaty of Lausanne, which does indeed show that a clearly defined Palestine, was never transferred to any State.

In order to cross reference this with their intentions in 1948, we need to read the Arab League Declaration on the Invasion of Palestine May 15, 1948, for which I used the Jewish Virtual Library.


Arab League Declaration on the Invasion of Palestine May 15, 1948

The Governments of the Arab States emphasise, on this occasion, what they have already declared before the London Conference and the United Nations, that the only solution of the Palestine problem is the establishment of a unitary Palestinian State, in accordance with democratic principles, whereby its inhabitants will enjoy complete equality before the law, [and whereby] minorities will be assured of all the guarantees recognised in democratic constitutional countries, and [whereby] the holy places will be preserved and the right of access thereto guaranteed.


Snr Keo2008, you’re full of shite! Not only did the Arab States reflect the worthy aspirations of the League of Nations Covenant, they also guarantee to uphold it. Not only were they correct in asserting that Palestine was never transfered to any State, but they guaranteed to protect it and all it’s inhabitants, offering them democracy and freedom of religion.
The complete opposite of the lies allowed to remain, where Facts are Sacred!

September 24, 2009

They lie at CiFWatch, they lie at the Olive Branch


…It’s actually quite simple. If it isn’t the “acknowledged” Sovereign Territory of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt or Israel,
then it’s a territory of the non-state entity of Palestine…

ShortLink http://wp.me/pDB7k-8B

If people tell outright lies on a talkbored, why should anyone believe anything they say? Answer, you can’t!!

Apart from refusing my registration to Olive Branch, despite their claim “ALL are welcome to join in”, and the fact that the whole premise of the thread Israel ‘occupies’ no Arab territories, is a blatant lie , they bear false witness. Which of course is completely against the basic tenets of Judaism.

ItsikDeWembley

Peter,

You seem to forget something very important.
Western Galilee, and Tel Katsir to Almagor.
We have gained use of that small strip around the Kineret – which was not intended for our use, slopes of Naftali mountains – same, and the entire Western Galilee – From Safed to Akko.

Yeterday, reading comments in The Guardian, a regular poster calls himself “Talknic” seems to counter your opinion about the Palestinian aspirations prior to 1967 as a result that no borders were declared between 1949 and 1967.

This, in my opinion, shows his / hers true intentions that either the armestice lines of 1949 should be moved back to the original patition plan (absurd idea) or that Zionism is not a valid movement and Jews do not have the right to self govern and a national movement.

Needless to say that many agree with him in that forum.
The one state solutioners all fit this line of thoughts.

Arrafat’s finest troops.

A) I’ve never advocated Israel move back to any armistice lines, because 1) Armistice lines are not borders unless they were borders before the armistice 2) Borders were never ‘declared’ in 1949/50 and Israel has never legally annexed any territory.
B) Neither here anywhere else, have I ever advocated a one state solution.

Another LIE


Re: A Time To Speak Out – Joel Schalit – Margie » Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:15 pm

“Alas, history proves you wrong. By 1949 Israel had grown some what from it’s apportioned lot under 181.”

I answered him as follows:

Well done Talknic: what good misdirection. ‘Israel had grown’ as if it were Israel’s fault that she was attacked by all her neighbouring countries and had the cheek of not succumbing!

Really? I wonder where she gets her information. Certainly not from anything I’ve ever written

Another LIE

Some one named Talknic was doubting the Ahmedinajad was a foot soldier in the 80’s which performed many acts of war crimes (if you can say a war was hapening…) I tend to believe the following Iranian guy who said he was there. …

Evidence? NIL NOUGHT NADA NO THING

September 23, 2009

Busy beavers over at CiFWatch, proving nothing


A busy time in the den of thieves…

John Brown

Well, talknic has been outed in his latest incarnation by Yotam on the Whitaker Yemen thread,

Yes, his only post, which was deleted, was to desperately have someone silenced, rather than address the content. Rather against ye olde CiFWatch motto, ‘The voice of opponents, no less than that of friends has a right to be heard’

‘outed’ ? Mmmmm. Links to this blog. Tell the mods I’d like to be moderated. No change of style. Easy to spot: the questions asked of John Brown’s fellows always go un-answered, out of embarrassment on their part no doubt. Brave John Brown continues:

“..and I see that Dikaisyne has piled on as well . So just in case his/her comment is dleted, here it is for the records:”

LOL ‘piled on‘ a rather revealing choice of words, suggesting maybe a concerted effort? Dikaisyne’s (likely the banned AKUS judging by how much it knows about talknic’s past) post shows..well, nothing!! Except of course to want a War Crimes investigation in Yemen, when Yemen was not at war with anyone. To investigate Nasser’s war crimes, when Nasser has been dead for years. And that (as we can see from an earlier post and the final post, below) it took Dikaisyne almost an entire day, till the end of comments to get UNHRC correct..

1)

Dikaisyne

19 Sep 09, 11:14pm

Snow will fall in Yemen before the UNHCR sends a commission to investigate war crimes there, or Judge Goldstone expresses an opinion on the matter.

They could start with Nasser’s use of poison gas against Yemenies about 50 years ago.


Where UNHCR actually came from, yes Dikaisyne itself, so kindly preserved by brave John Brown

2)

Dikaisyne

20 Sep 09, 9:43pm

Arrgh – unHRC!!


Meanwhile talknic/regarding was again completely silenced

September 22, 2009

CiF and the un-answered questions some folk would rather not have asked


…It’s actually quite simple. If it isn’t the “acknowledged” Sovereign Territory of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt or Israel,
then it’s a territory of Palestine…

Shortlink http://wp.me/pDB7k-7X

I’ve no idea why talknic was banned from CiF. It’s never been explained. No warning, no correspondence answered. To the best of my knowledge, no guidelines broken.

Sure I re-register, A) In protest at being unfairly banned B) In order to show where the lies lie and C) In order to engage in well informed and erudite discussion, sans abuse and personal attacks D) using an email address at my own domain, so the moderators know exactly who I am, where I live, what I do for a living. In fact, more than my mother knows.

Of course if one is banned and re-registers one has to choose a new posting nic. Which results in silly accusations of deception. Hey, I’m impersonating myself? Hiding by linking this blog?

These same folk refuse to honestly answer any question put to them. It’s odd that one can engage in rational discussion with other posters & posts remain up UNTIL the moment there’s engagement with a supporter of Israel’s illegal activities. Almost instantly reported, banned and of late, the posts are almost completely purged.

Is what I write Antisemitic? Well talknic doesn’t appear on CiFWatch as an Antisemite. Abusive? Trolling? Hatefull? Well, no, I try to deal precisely with what posters have claimed or asserted and attempt to give rational answers or ask rational questions, pointing to factual information from reliable repositories and/or, for the most part, websites such as the Jewish Virtual Library, the Israeli Government web site, the JCPA.

Yes, the information is collected here, on a blog. That doesn’t invalidate the information it contains. However when I point to this collection on CiF, it results in immediately deletion and of course banning, whilst blatant lies and very obvious bigotry for the most part, remains.

Judging by the stats the CiFers have visited. Yet not contesting what’s here, on an un-moderated platform, in a completely open debate.

Blog at WordPress.com.