First, find out what isn't true…

October 24, 2009

Is there a danger of Sacred Fact being drowned out on the Guardian’s Comment is Free – CiF ?

…It’s actually quite simple. If it isn’t the “acknowledged” Sovereign Territory of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt or Israel,
then it’s a territory of Palestine…


Why am I writing this? In order to have a balanced discourse on the Israel/Palestinian issue, it is imperative that well sourced and factual counter argument be given the chance to be heard. Apart from the various slings and arrows and opinions of posters and contributors, the casual reader ought be given the chance to see what is actually said in documents, law, UNSC resolutions rather than after they’ve been put through the Ziofier and spammed endlessly.

The machinations of the UN are quite complex and ought be explained in concise and understandable terms, not just presented as an Anti-Israel organization bent on the destruction of Israel. Propaganda ought be shown for what it is. CiF and the Guardian surely owe it to their readers that a moderate voice, with a basic understanding of the Laws, UN Charter et al, be heard.

So, is there danger that CiF will be flooded with propaganda in support of Israel’s expansionist policies and illegal activities? Can moderate voices, factual information and rational counter argument be silenced? I know I am! Regularly.

By their own admissions and actions, the apologists for Israel’s illegal expansionism and illegal activities group together, issue reports on CiF commentaries, conduct mail outs advising people and encouraging them to counter anything which might be construed as Anti-Israel.

How do I know? I subscribe to some under another name in order to find out what they’re up to. Others, like CiFWatch are just too blatant and stupid for their own good, actually undermining their own hard work by the shear idiocy of their accusations and admissions. HERE”S ONE BY A CiF CONTRIBUTOR!!!Admitting to concerted efforts to have folk banned.

Ironically they complain about being banned themselves. To this end, they appear to be willing to stop at nothing. If they blatantly lie in their posts on CiF & CiFWatch, what’s to stop them from lying in their complaints to moderators especially if over worked moderators don’t look closely. Nothing!

Are these people devious? Yes. Most certainly. I’ve only kept one example of the handiwork of an apologist for Israel’s illegal activities at work on TALK International, combined alas, with moderation that begs enhancement. (I do not envy the position BTW). I had been posting as ‘Some1’ and received the following warning …

From: …… [mailto:……]
Sent: Saturday, 5 August 2006 1:26 AM
To: {…….}
Subject: GU Talk Warning (Some1)
This is your first warning. We are issuing 1 warning per user before banning people permanently.
User Help
Guardian Unlimited
119 Farringdon Road
London EC1R 3ER

Some1 – 08:34am Aug 4, 2006 GMT

How do you tell if a Jew is lying – his lips are moving. For some reason, anything that comes from Israel is a LIE. But anything that Hizbullah, Iran, and Hamas say or print is GOSPEL!

I immediately searched for this alleged breach of the guidelines and found the following

Israel/Lebanon Conflict Thread

100reader – 01:53pm Aug 4, 2006 GMT (#408 of 503)

Some1 – 08:34am Aug 4, 2006 GMT

How do you tell if a Jew is lying – his lips are moving. For some reason, anything that comes from Israel is a LIE. But anything that Hizbullah, Iran, and Hamas say or print is GOSPEL!

A) A poster had taken 100reader’s sarcastic, strawman remark, deleted 100reader from it and attributed it to me. Very likely 100reader, judging by a subsequent post advising me I’d need a new user name.
B) It is not in quotes. Not mine. Doesn’t closely resemble anything I’d say.
C) If one reads carefully, it reveals itself by the second two sentences in that single, unquoted, paragraph… “For some reason, anything that comes from Israel is a LIE. But anything that Hizbullah, Iran, and Hamas say or print is GOSPEL!”
1) It shows a sarcastic remark by 100Reader, prefaced with “How do you tell if a Jew is lying – his lips are moving.”
2) I’d never claimed or written anything of the sort. 100reader was of course constructing a strawman.

I attempted to explain this deception to …….@guardian. To no avail. Correspondence went un-answered. I was later banned, very likely on a similar completely false premise.

It was the type of tactic commonly used in posts by the advocates of Israel’s illegal expansionist policies. Cherry picking, replacing words, mis-quoting, false accusations, outright lying and concerted efforts to have posters banned and of course, completely ignoring factual material and posting the same fallacies over and over. Spam. Show them a document proving their fallacy is a blatant lie and they just ignore it and carry on regardless. Hard core denial by a hard core of organized Anti-Cifers

On the other hand there are no organized Pro-CiF groups that I know of. No email lists, no concerted efforts by groups of people trying to get the apologists for Israeli expansionism banned. I have never been invited to join or subscribe to any alternative to the likes of Giyus with about 40,000 users and numerous supporters, CifWatch, the Olivebranch, Harry’s place. There is a very real danger of it becoming a one sided battle.

In any one sided battle, the chances of the more powerful side drowning out the other is always a possibility and of course the desired result. In respect to the Israel/Palestinian issue, Cif could, I dare say is, fast becoming devoid of facts. Like TALK International, a place where silly, repetitious, sniping bun fights are commonplace. Boring to the reader, non-informative and for the most part non-factual, which is of course is also a tactic. If you can’t win the argument, turn the dialogue into a moshpit that no one can be bothered reading.

As talknic there were some 5,300 posts on Cif. None abusive, none contained any hatred, bigotry, Antisemitism. To the best of my knowledge, none contravened the CiF guidelines. If I went off topic it was only in response to where some other poster had, usually with an oft repeated propaganda mantra. Spam.

I’ve never used Islamist sources, hate or Antisemitic sites, only citing, as I have here, mainly irrefutable and reliable Jewish sources such as the Israeli Govt web site, the Jewish virtual library, the UN and university repositories for documents.

With correspondence going un-answered, re-registering and continuing to post is the only form of protest one has and one hopes in the brief time the information remains, someone will learn something other than the endless propaganda. It is of course purged as soon as someone complains. Not that there is ever anything to actually complain against, nor has there ever been. I’m guessing it goes like this. ‘This person is the much banned ‘talknic’, a well known Anti-semite’

However, nothing I’ve ever written on CiF comes even close to Antisemitism, hatred, bigotry or abuse. In 42 years of addressing the I/P issue at public forums, meetings, letters to the editors and now with the advent of the likes of CiF, no-one has ever been able to show anything remotely Antisemitic from what must now be hundreds of thousands of words I’ve written and spoken on the subject. The only complaint my opponents actually have is, they cannot honestly answer the questions I ask. I don’t even make it on CiFWatch’s pathetic Anti-semite list!!!

In real life discussions I’ve been ejected from meetings, threatened, had my walls sprayed with graffiti, refused service, hate mailed (constantly). One hand written letter shoved under my door advised me not to sit near the window. I’ve been covered in the spittle sprayed from bug eyed, red faced denialistas, shaking in rage, screaming their obscenities and predictable list of what they wish I was, but am not. The only way apologists for Israel’s illegal actions can ‘counter’ irrefutable knowledge from verifiable and reliable sources, is to ignore, scream over the top or try to deny access to the discussion by making a false accusations. I dare say the moderators had hundreds of complaints about Talknic, in the hope that one, like the example above, would slip through, resulting in a banning.

Meanwhile all I have ever done is speak in the hope that folk will be educated as to what actually has taken place, what laws actually have been broken and what laws actually do stand, without changing anything. I do this IN SUPPORT of the Sovereign Israel that was created as a homeland/state for all Jewish people. Israel should, like all UN Member states, at the very least be law abiding. That is all I ask.

So how does one address the imbalance of organized groups against CiF, vs no organized group at all for CiF? How does one get re-instated in order that a moderate voice with factual information be heard? Correspond? No point if your correspondence goes in the spam bin. Write about it as I have done here? Of course.

Continue to be a squeaky door where “Facts are…meant to be… Sacred”

Both! Because I can! And will.



  1. Howdy,


    There are some very good writers on CiF, which is what attracted me in the first place.

    Yes, I am aware of the tactics one could use. However I’d rather stick to the guidelines, no deceit.

    Of course when citing the actual Laws, Conventions and resolutions, they always come out the same because hey, they haven’t changed. The purge button gets pressed.

    Never the less, CiF is a good sounding board. It has helped in putting together the information here. Helped hone arguments and letters to my Government representatives, lobby groups and other publications. It’s also invaluable for showing up the weaknesses and lack of factual information used by the propaganda mongers for Israel’s expansionist policies.

    Despite numerous invitations I’ve extended to those folk to come here and argue their points un-moderated, only a couple have.

    So I’ll continue to gather information and poke holes in their hollow arguments, re-register :-)

    Take care.

    Comment by talknic — November 16, 2009 @ 4:57 am

  2. If i was you i would simply move on from the talknic ID and instead,

    – use a web proxy to hide your IP address, ( for example)
    – post under a different name
    – change writing style a bit
    – deny having anything to do with talknic

    That way you (a valuable cif writer in my opinion) can still contribute to CiF unmolested.

    Comment by qwerty — November 15, 2009 @ 11:39 pm

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