by default it’s a territory of Palestine, regardless of whether it is a state or not…
…ShortLink http://wp.me/PDB7k-Y … …If you can disprove any of the items here with logic and citations of official documents from credible sources, I will gladly remove the offending item. Till then, feel free to put up, sans bull sh*te, abuse and personal attacks…..enjoy!
“..at one minute after six o’clock on the evening of 14 May 1948, Washington time”, after the British Occupation under the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine “terminated”, Israel became a sovereign state, independent of its neighbours including what remained of Palestine.
The Jewish people’s homeland state had been declared. Far smaller than the ‘historic’ homeland of the Jewish people. By its own Declaration Israel the Jewish Pople’s ‘Historical’ Homeland, became just that, historical. Of interest, but not in fact negating any of the State of Israel’s obligations to International Law and subsequently the UN Charter. Another opportunity missed by the Zionist Federation for Jews to live anywhere in the Jewish People’s Historical Homeland anywhere in Palestine
What was a civil war (1947 – 1948) prior to Israel’s declaration, became a war waged by the new State on what remained of Palestine ” at one minute after six o’clock on the evening of 14 May 1948, Washington time” , the moment the Israeli Declaration came into effect. (ibid)
Under the preemptive Plan Dalet, Jewish forces were already OUTSIDE of Israel’s Sovereignty on the 14th May 1948. Confirmed in statements by the Israeli Government to the UNSC – May 22nd 1948 and June 15th 1949
As regional powers, in accordance with the UN Charter, the Arab League legally declared an invasion of “PALESTINE” (not Israel). Even though Lebanon, Syria, Egypt and Iraq were UN Member States, there is no UNSC Resolution condemning the Invasion of Palestine. The Arab States had a right, according to the UN Charter, to attempt to expel foreign forces from what remained of Palestine.
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Propaganda: When National interests are at stake, rest assured, it’s big business! All Governments propagate some form of propaganda. When Governments are tied in with land and big construction & infrastructure projects, like the illegal settlements Israel insists on continuing, it’s really big business. You can be sure the propaganda will be ramped up.
An example of propaganda : We’re told the Arabs of the area that became Israel invited to stay when Israel became a State. It is in the Declaration for the Establishment of the State of Israel. OK, how did they suddenly become a demographic threat in the few weeks after they’d left, if they would not have been a demographic threat had they stayed?
It does not make sense. One notion is a lie. Did the Jewish people’s council not know about Plan Dalet?
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link to this section
Let’s start with some oft repeated nonsense, which would bring tears of laughter, were the complete ignorance of those who seek to perpetuate it not so pathetically sad….
Top place of honour goes to Ma’ayan Cohen, the top legal advisor for the Home Front Command. (yes, you read it right, the TOP LEGAL ADVISOR!)
From Haaretz : “The Israel Defense Forces Home Front commander has utilized a rare, British Mandate-era statute to bar a Palestinian resident of East Jerusalem from the capital for a period of four months.”
The top legal advisor is un-aware that the Mandate expired and has cited a Military Law of OCCUPATION in a territory Israel claims is sovereign to Israel. In effect he is admitting the illegality of Israeli settlements in “territories occupied” and the illegal annexation of territory, illegally acquired by war. It DEFIES LOGIC for the territory of a sovereign to be under the occupation of the sovereign.
But he isn’t the only one depending on their extraordinary ability to not read the Israeli Declaration
We have Ephraim commenting at the Foreign Policy Journal … another “the Mandate for Palestine is valid to this day and in perpetuity” … another … “the borders were defined in 1920 .. guaranteed by the anglo american convention in 1924 .. guaranteed by the anglo american convention in 1924. they are know and were administered in the mandate for 23 years”
One can only assume they’ve either never read the Declaration for the Establishment of the State of Israel – OR – the Israeli Government has it all wrong on their website and the Jewish People’s Council had no idea of what they were talking about.. The Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel May 14, 1948 : “On May 14, 1948, on the day in which the British Mandate over a Palestine expired…”
It seems clear enough there at the top of the page, except to those who’ve never bothered to read the Declaration or perhaps those who don’t know what the word ‘expired’ means. Either way, their stupid notion is only the thin edge of the Fallacy Wedge…it’s @#$&*# HUGE!!
Almost everything the Israeli’s say against the Palestinians is a fallacy! Spread either by the un-witting or by the ignorant or PURPOSEFULLY by those who’re not interested in anything but justifying the illegal acquisition of Palestinian territory. Honesty and integrity do not play a part in their MO. You need to check everything they say. EVERYTHING!!
link to this section
UNGA res 181 is irrelevant, Israel’s borders have never been defined
Letter From the Agent of the Provisional Government of Israel to the President of the United States, May 15, 1948
“MY DEAR MR. PRESIDENT: I have the honor to notify you that the state of Israel has been proclaimed as an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947, and that a provisional government has been charged to assume the rights and duties of government for preserving law and order within the boundaries of Israel, for defending the state against external aggression, and for discharging the obligations of Israel to the other nations of the world in accordance with international law. The Act of Independence will become effective at one minute after six o’clock on the evening of 14 May 1948, Washington time.” Also available as PDF from the Truman Library additional info from
Recognition of Israel:
USA 15 May 1948 “… as an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947…”Russia 17 May 1948
Letter from Mr. Molotov stated: “Confirming receipt of your telegram of May 16, in which you inform the Government of the USSR of the proclamation, on the basis of the resolution of the United Nations Assembly of November 29, 1947, of the creation in Palestine of the independent State of Israel and make re-quest for the recognition of the State of Israel and its provisional government by the USSR. I inform yon in this letter that the Govern-ment of the USSR has decided to recognize officially the Stale of Israel and its Provisional Government.”British 27 April 1950 The British Foreign Office issued a statement on May 17 to the effect that Great Britain would not recognize Israel for the time being because it had not fulfilled the “basic criteria” of an independent state. The British waited until a political party was elected to Govern the State of Israel, then granted de jure recognition, with conditions. The territories Israel had acquired by war, outside of it’s declared Sovereign Boundaries, were considered to be ‘occupied’. I.e., NOT Israeli Sovereign territory.
“His Majesty’s Government have also decided to accord de jure recognition to the State of Israel, subject to explanations on two points corresponding to those described above in regard to the case of Jordan. These points are as follows. First, that His Majesty’s Government are unable to recognise the sovereignty of Israel over that part of Jerusalem which she occupies, though, pending a final determination of the status of the area, they recognise that Israel exercises de facto authority in it. Secondly, that His Majesty’s Government cannot regard the present boundaries between Israel, and Egypt, Jordan, Syria and the Lebanon as constituting the definitive frontiers of Israel, as these boundaries were laid down in the Armistice Agreements concluded severally between Israel and each of these States, and are subject to any modifications which may be agreed upon under the terms of those Agreements, or of any final settlements which may replace them.” Thus far nothing has replaced them.Australia 28 January 1949 “… on the basis of the resolution of the United Nations Assembly of November 29, 1947…”
New Zealand 29 January 1949 “It is the understanding of the New Zealand Government that the settlement of boundaries and other outstanding questions will be effected in accordance with the resolution of the General Assembly of the United Nations of 11 December 1948.”
Shabtai Rosen, British-born professor of international law at Bar Ilan University “(a) Shortly after the signing of the Israel-Egyptian agreement, early in March. 1949, Israeli forces advanced south to the littoral into the area allocated to the Jewish State: in General Assembly resolution l8l (II) of 29 November 1947“
Question (a): Over which areas of Palestine do you actually exercise control at present over the entire area of the Jewish State as defined in the Resolution of the General Assembly of the 29th November, 1947?
“In addition, the Provisional Government exercises control over the city of Jaffa; Northwestern Galilee, including Acre, Zib, Base, and the Jewish settlements up to the Lebanese frontier; a strip of territory alongside the road from Hilda to Jerusalem; almost all of new Jerusalem; and of the Jewish quarter within the walls of the Old City of Jerusalem. The above areas, outside the territory of the State of Israel, are under the control of the military authorities of the State of Israel, who are strictly adhering to international regulations in this regard. The Southern Negev is uninhabited desert over which no effective authority has ever existed.”
Bear this in mind. Israel has NEVER legally annexed ANY territory outside the extent of its Declared Sovereignty.
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The British Occupation under the League of Nations Mandate: The mandate stipulated that they were to foster the conditions leading to an Independent State of Palestine wherein the Jews could establish a homeland amongst the other inhabitants, as Palestinians, under democratic Palestinian law. The mandate ended 14th May 1948. It is no longer relevant except as an historical reference. Jordan (TransJordan): Jordan relinquished all trustee status over the West Bank in order that the Palestinians can legally declare Sovereignty (unfortunately Israel prevents this). Since relinquishing trustee status, Jordan has also revoked the temporary citizenship of Palestine refugees in order that they maintain RoR to Israel and to the possible future Palestinian state. |
Exactly WHO is being wiped off the map? link to this section – – link to this graphic
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Palestinian territories – West Bank: Gaza: |
link to this section
Israel’s northern ‘borders’ with Lebanon include Acre, Nazareth
Lebanese-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, March 23, 1949
“Article V 1. The Armistice Demarcation Line shall follow the international boundary between Lebanon and Palestine.”
It is illegal to acquire territory by force/war and Israel has never legally annexed ANY territory outside the Sovereign borders of it’s declaration.
link to this graphic
(rough representation only)
Q: – On what date was Paleestinian territory bordering Lebanon legally annexed to Israel?
A: – It has NEVER been annexed!
link to this section
Israel’s Southern ‘borders’ with Egypt and Gaza include Ashkelon, Beer Sheba etc?
Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949
“Article V. 1. The line described in Article VI of this Agreement shall be designated as the Armistice Demarcation Line and is delineated in pursuance of the purpose and intent of the resolutions of the Security Council of 4 and 16 November 1948.
2. The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary, and is delineated without prejudice to rights, claims and positions of either Party to the Armistice as regards ultimate settlement of the Palestine question.”
Article XI No provision of this Agreement shall in any way prejudice the rights, claims and positions of either Party hereto in the ultimate peaceful settlement of the Palestine question.
It is illegal to acquire territory by force/war and Israel has never legally annexed ANY territory outside the extent of it’s declared Sovereignty.
link to this graphic
(rough representation only)
Q: – On what date was Palestinian territory bordering Egypt, containing Ashkelon, Beer Sheba, etc annexed to Israel?
A: – It has NEVER been annexed!
link to this section
The Jewish Federations of North America ‘FACT’ Territory Can Be Acquired in War
“Some people take this to mean that Israel is required to withdraw from all the territories it captured. On the contrary, the reference clearly applies only to an offensive war. If not, the resolution would provide an incentive for aggression. If one country attacks another, and the defender repels the attack and acquires territory in the process, the former interpretation would require the defender to return all the land it took. Thus, aggressors would have little to lose because they would be insured against the main consequence of defeat”
It is admissible to ‘restore’ by war (failing a UN Chapter Six solution), one’s own Sovereign territory, illegally acquired by another party. What Israel has ‘acquired’ illegally by war, was not Sovereign Israeli territory. The Jewish Federations of North America disregard these pertinent facts A) That Israel informed the International Community that it had accepted and declared Sovereignty ONLY over the boundaries recommended by UNGA Res 181. The majority of the International community recognized Israel based on that notification, over riding the Arab States legal objections. B) Israel has never legally annexed any territories C) a key word – “sovereign”… ( the linked article cites it, but ignores the same facts )
…ShortLink http://wp.me/PDB7k-Y#Schwebel Professor Stephen M. Schwebel – (NB: ‘Professor’ not as a Judge of International Court of Justice) as quoted by
99. The state of the law has been correctly summarized by Elihu Lauterpacht, a distinguished authority on international law, as follows:
“… territorial change cannot properly take place as a result of the unlawful use of force. But to omit the word `unlawful’ is to change the substantive content of the rule and to turn an important safeguard of legal principle into an aggressor’s charter. For if force can never be used to effect lawful territorial change, then, if territory has once changed hands as a result of the unlawful use of force, the illegitimacy of the position thus established is sterilized by the prohibition upon the use of force to restore the lawful sovereign. This cannot be regarded as reasonable or correct.”
restore the lawful sovereign.
A) It is inadmissible to ‘acquire’ territory by war, aggressive/illegal OR defensive/legal. The reason the phrase does not include an ‘aggressive/illegal’ or ‘defensive/legal’ qualification is because it means ANY war. The inhabitants might not have voted for or even been able to vote for the regime in power at the start of the conflict. The UN Charter stipulates ‘self determination’. Not the determination of a conquering power.
B) If it is one’s sovereign territory already, one is not ‘acquiring’ it, one is ‘restoring it.
The JFNA have run with Schwebel’s opinion without looking at it. Ignoring the key word and ignoring what Israel’s actual sovereign territories are. In his convoluted attempt to ‘explain’ for Israel, Schwebel has tripped over himself. That he has tripped over himself shows us he as trying to justify rather than explain.
They also misconstrue UNSC Res 242. A) “territories occupied” and not withdrawn from, are still occupied! B) UNSC Res 242 is between States. The boundaries it refers to are those of States, which had all been recognized and acknowledged as theirs before 1967. C) It only allows Israel to remain occupying some territories, pending the resolution of the question of Palestine.
Q1: – What if folk are conscripted? Do you think it would be fair to acquire the territory belonging to citizens who have been forcefully conscripted into the military? Would it be fair to acquire the territory of Iraq’s citizens, when Iraqi’s were ruled by a dictator?
Q2: – Why would anyone disregard pertinent facts surrounding Israel’s actual Sovereign territories and an absolutely essential key word?
Q3: – Why is this Letter From the Agent of the Provisional Government of Israel to the President of the United States, May 15, 1948, perhaps one of the most important document’s relating to the recognition of Israel as a Sovereign state, NOT on any Israeli Government website?
Q4: – Why Did the Jewish People’s Council decide to purposefully decide to NOT mention boundaries in the Declaration, other than to ensure there was ambiguity?
There is no legal requirement to include boundaries in the Declaration. It was made in acceptance of the conditions of UNGA res 181 for declaring. So I find it strange that, as a defense for illegally acquiring Palestinian territory after 14th May ’48, we’re told the Jewish People’s Council decided to purposefully NOT mention boundaries in the Declaration. It’s bizarre.
Q5: – Why mention purposefully not mentioning something that didn’t even require mentioning and why is it always only brought up in defense of illegal acquisition?
Q6: – What actual Sovereign territories of Israel have the Arab States attempted to acquire by war?
link to this section
Israel’s borders are from 1967 and East Jerusalem is Israeli?:
The acquisition of territory by war/force is inadmissible. This is either re-affirmed or emphasized in the UNSC resolutions. In order to acquire territory outside one’s sovereignty, it must be legally annexed with the consent of citizens to whom the territory belongs, through a referendum of the territory’s legitimate citizens, not including the citizens of the occupying power (see the legal annexation of Texas, a move which was instrumental in the eventual passing of the legal custom of having an agreement passing into Customary International Law). A) The territories it acquired by force by 1949 have not been legally annexed B) The annexation of East Jerusalem was declared illegal by
252 (1968) of 21 May 1968, 267 (1969) of 3 July 1969, 271 (1969) of 15 September 1969, 298 (1971) of 25 September 1971, 446 (1979) of 22 March 1979, 452 (1979) 20 July 1979, 465 (1980) of 1 March 1980, 476 June 30 1980 and 478 August 20 1980 …. Oh, and Israel’s annexation of the Golan was also condemned by the UNSC Res 497
Q1: – If Israel has not legally annexed the territories it acquired by war/force and the 1949 and 1967 armistice lines are not borders if they were not borders before the armistice/s, on what legal basis does Israel claim these territories outside it’s own Sovereign Territory?
Q2: – If Israel has not legally annexed the territories it acquired by war/force and the 1949 and 1967 armistice lines are not borders, on what legal basis has Israel instituted Israeli civil law in territories it occupies?
link to this section
Jerusalem is not Palestinian
From the fall of the Ottoman Empire there was an entity called Palestine. Jerusalem was a part of it. Under the British Mandate over Palestine, TransJordan was carved off. What remained was Palestine, under the British Mandate over Palestine.
When Israel Declared it’s Sovereign borders, May14th 1948, Israel did not include Jerusalem.
What remained of Palestine after Israel Declared is still known as Palestine, it includes Jerusalem. The name has never been changed. It is still called Palestine. It’s citizens are Palestinians.
Israel exists. So it’s all water under the bridge. People should get over it? Facts on the ground have changed the reality?
A) Peace agreements are based on Internationally recognized Sovereign territory. If only one party is Sovereign state, it’s sovereign territories, by default, define what ISN’T it’s own.
B) It shows that if the Palestinians agree to the fabled ‘67 borders between Israel and Palestine (which in fact are not borders), contrary to the Israeli propaganda, it would be the Palestinians who are being generous. Not Israel.
Q: Why should decent folk tolerate lies, propaganda and fallacies about the past being purposefully promoted and used TODAY, on Israel’s behalf TODAY, in order to justify and support it’s continued and illegal expansionist policies, TODAY.
In the age of the internet, once something is put out, it cannot be fully purged. Most people don’t bother to check, they’re either too busy just trying to make ends meet in this busy world or they don’t care. So called ‘news’ is delivered in byte sized easily consumable packages that tell them next to nothing.
Propagandists like and depend on them being that way. Propagandists don’t care if they put something out which is a blatant lie, because they know that even if they retract their work, it will still be out there, being spread by those who support their cause or un-wittingly by folk who don’t crosscheck.
Although news reports are the last place for non-partisan reports & facts, they can be quite revealing.
A classic example of Purposefully Perpetuating Lies:
link to this section
In September 2008 Muslims urinated next to the Torah scrolls
On the 7th Sep 2008, there was a huge outcry when it was reported that Muslims urinated near the Torah Scrolls. Israeli news services were flooded with the report, as were thousands of blogs. GOOGLE example. There is a retraction on JPost
To the best of my knowledge, apart from this one solitary JPost report, none of the blogs and news services have not issued statements repudiating their original reports, preferring to perpetuate a false accusation, which of course, is against the basic tenets of Judaism.
The thousands of vile, hate filled comments against Muslims, hosted by these news services and blogs, remain. ALL based on a false accusation. Cute eh?
ANOTHER – This is reported BEFORE the Gaza dis-engagement.
link to this section
The Palestinians destroyed all the greenhouses the settlers gave them when they left Gaza
However, PRIOR to the Israeli dis-engagement of Gaza and the subsequent reports of the people of Gaza destroying the hundreds of greenhouses so ‘generously donated’ by the departing settlers..
Under international pressure to save what is left for Palestinian economic development, Israeli and international officials are working on a plan to pay settlers to hand over the remaining greenhouses and a dairy to Palestinians, to preserve jobs and production. These businesses provide thousands of jobs to Gazans.
Of the roughly 1,000 acres of agricultural land that were under greenhouses in the 21 Israeli settlements in Gaza, only 500 acres remain – creating significant doubts that the greenhouses could be handed over to the Palestinians as “a living business,” the goal cited by the Israeli coordinator of the pullout, Eival Giladi.
HOME …
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Questions the propagandists dare not honestly answer
Items are in random order
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Never has a country gone to such extraordinary lengths to remove the enemy’s civilian population from harm’s way.
Netanyahu’s speech at the UN General Assembly 24th September 2009 “Never has a country gone to such extraordinary lengths to remove the enemy’s civilian population from harm’s way.”
Although it gave forewarning, Israel had all the crossings closed, under the 2005 agreement with Egypt, (only possible to have such an agreement as an Occupying Power), thereby preventing civilians from fleeing a war zone, BEFORE attacking, which is illegal under Geneva Convention 1V…Section II..Occupied territories..Art49…The Occupying Power shall not detain protected persons in an area particularly exposed to the dangers of war unless the security of the population or imperative military reasons so demand. Civilians could not even flee into the sea, because Israel controls the Palestinian territorial waters.
It is also worth considering that under the Laws of War, Art. 25. The attack or bombardment, by whatever means, of towns, villages, dwellings, or buildings which are undefended is prohibited.
Q1: – Where could the innocent civilians of Gaza have gone, when all means of escape were closed?
Q2: – Of what use were the weapons available to the Palestinians as defense against a ship, miles out to sea, firing artillery shells into the territory or against a missile, fired from a fighter plane?
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Palestinians helped Hitler in the Holocaust via the efforts of the Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini
The Palestinians of today have a life expectancy of 73 yrs. In 1945 it was likely lower. It’s now 2009. Subtract 1945 from 2009 = 64. Subtract 64 from 73 = 9yrs old in 1945. Simple maths tells us that today’s Palestinians had absolutely NOTHING to do with the Holocaust or Hitler or WW2. By the War of Independence in 1948 they were only 12yrs old. Still children.
Ironically the Mufti was appointed by the British, by a Jewish chap, one Herbert Samuel, who also created the Supreme Muslim Council. Furthermore, Haj Amin al-Husseini was booted out of office in 1939. When he met Hitler, in 1941 he wasn’t actually an official representative of the Palestinian people. He certainly wasn’t the Mufti of Jerusalem and the Palestinians of today were ALL children.
Yet Snr Leiberman continues to perpetuate the ‘myth’ of Palestinians involvement in the holocaust even today.
Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman has ordered diplomats to use an old photograph of a former Palestinian religious leader meeting Adolf Hitler to counter world criticism of a Jewish building plan for East Jerusalem. Asked why Lieberman issued the order, a spokesman said: “because it’s important for the world to know the facts” and would not elaborate.
Q1: – How many Palestinians voted for the appointment of the Mufti of Jerusalem?
Q2: – How many Palestinians of today voted for the appointment of the Mufti of Jerusalem?
Q3: – How many Palestinian children between the ages of 0yrs and 12yrs fought in the war of Independence 1948?
Q4: – How many Palestinian children between the ages of 0yrs and 9yrs supported Hitler in 1941?
Q5: – How many Palestinian children between the ages of 0yrs and 9yrs supported the ex Mufti of Jerusalem in 1941?
Q6: – How many Palestinian children between the ages of 0yrs and 3yrs supported the Mufti of Jerusalem in 1939?
Q7: – What ‘facts’ was Lieberman’s spokesman talking about?
Answer – NONE! None of it is relevant to today’s Palestinians. It’s just BULLSHITE!
link to this section
UNSC Resolution 242 calls for the negotiation of borders between Israel and the Palestinian territories.
UNSC Resolution 242 was between the Sovereign Arab States and the Sovereign State of Israel. The resolution is specifically dealing with already SOVEREIGN, STATES, with RECOGNIZED boundaries. The word ‘negotiate’ does not appear in the document. The words used are ‘acknowledgement of’
UNSC Resolution 242 actually calls for a Peace Agreement between Sovereign Israel and the Sovereign Arab States. Expanded HERE
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Karsenty vs France 2 – The IDF was cleared of killing Mohammed Al Durah by a French court
Not according to the actual court decision..
“Considering the state of the elements of the investigation, which form a factual base sufficient to allow that the statements at issue, often close to a judgment call, could have been made by the author of the article and the press release at issue to discuss subjects of such general interest as the danger of power – in this case, the power of the press – in the absence of counterbalance, and the right of the public to serious information; it can be found that Philippe KARSENTY exercised his right of free criticism in good faith; that, in doing so, he did not overstep the limits of the freedom of expression recognized in article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights, which applies not only to information or ideas that are met with favor or considered inoffensive or insignificant, but also to those that offend, shock or disturb;
That the decision of the lower court will therefore be overturned; the charges against Philippe KARSENTY and the demands of the civil parties dismissed;
ON THESE GROUNDS
The court
By judgment rendered after due hearing of the parties and after having deliberated according to the law;
In view of the interlocutory order of October 3, 2007;
Declares no objection to the pleadings submitted by Philippe KARSENTY;
Overturns the deferred judgment and dismisses the charges against Philippe KARSENTY;
Dismisses the demands of the civil parties.
THE PRESIDENT THE COURT CLERK”
Q: – What is the actual jurisdiction of a court in a libel appeal?
This the only link on this site to any Arab information
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The Palestinians hate us because we’re Jews.
Sheik Ahmad Yassin Founder of Hamas. DoB on passport 1929 He claims DOB was 1938. Working on the latter DOB, he was dispossessed as an innocent child aged 10. The Jewish state prevented a child of 10 from returning home. If he was born in 1929, he’d have been dispossessed at 19 yrs of age. In 2004 he’d have been 75 years old, 56 years homeless, 56 years stateless, half blind, a quadriplegic, when Israel assassinated him with a HellFire Missile and slaughtered eleven other people in the process.
Bear in mind how the propaganda paints this man.
“Our homeland was stolen, I have a home and a land in Askalan (Ashkelon). Others in Yafa (Jafa), Gaza. We ask for our rights, nothing more. We don’t hate the Jews and fight them because they are Jews. They are people of religion and we are people of religion. We love people of religion
If my brother, who has the same religion and parents as me. If he takes my home and expel(s) me from my land. I will fight him. I will fight my brother. I will fight my cousin if he does that to me. So when a Jew takes my home and expels me, I will fight him as well. I don’t fight the USA, Britain or other countries, I am at peace with all people. I love all people and wish them well. Even the Jews. The Jews lived with us for a long time, We never assaulted them or transgressed on their rights. They used to hold high positions in the Government and ministries. But if they take my home and make me a refugee.
We have 4 million Palestinian refugees outside of Palestine, Who have more right to this land? The Russian immigrant? Who left this land over 2,000 years ago? Or the one who left it 40 years ago? Who has more right? We don’t hate the Jews, We only want them to give us our rights. ”
Q: – If half of your shared homeland was given away for a Catholic state, without you being asked, then a further half was taken, illegally, by force and you were dispossessed for 62 years, in some cases twice 1948 & 1967, would you vent your anger on Catholics or Jews?
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The Hamas Charter states that they want to kill all Jews
The Hamas Charter does indeed contain some ghastly rhetoric. Written in war, for war, citing scripture also written in war, for war, it attempts to demonize the enemy and certainly does the Palestinian cause no favours. It’s the Hamas version of the USA’s Axis of Evil statement.
It does however contain a caveat. Caveats are just as important as any other clause in a contract/charter/statement. The caveat in this instant shows precisely who the rest of the document is aimed at and why. In the propaganda war, the caveat is of course never cited.
Q1 : – If it were Catholics given half of Palestine in ’48 for a homeland state without consulting the majority of the local inhabitants and the Catholic state rather than a Jewish state, then acquired, illegally, by war, another 50% of the remainder, dispossessing the local non-Catholic inhabitants, razing their villages and homes, forbidding them to return, populating the territory with Catholics, do you really think the Hamas Charter would still say “Jews”?
Q2 : – Which came first? Hamas? Or Plan Dalet, razing villages, homes, dispossessing tens of thousands of non-Jews, never allowing them to return?
link to this section
“Jews are colonizing their legitimate historical land” – OR – Jewish people are a race.
From HaaretzSeven Chinese people with Jewish roots landed at Ben-Gurion Airport on Tuesday to start a new life in Israel, becoming the largest such group to ever arrive here.
Q1: – Can anyone explain please the features of these Chinese Jews?
Q2: – Can anyone explain please the features of the Jewish actress Sophie Okonedo?
Q3: – Can anyone explain please the features of these Japanese Jews?
Q4: – Can anyone explain please the features of these Kaifeng’s Jews?
link to this section
Combatants must wear a uniform.
An emblem is required. Not a uniform.
The Laws of War – Article 1: ”To have a fixed distinctive emblem recognizable at a distance“
Common sense tells us that even in the most law abiding militaries, Combat Fatigues are camouflaged. They’re camouflaged so that the enemy CAN’T see them! Enemy armies might have similar or even identical military fatigues. An army might have many different uniform configurations, depending on the conditions. A legitimate militia (per the Laws of War), may not have the resources to afford a uniform. That’s why there is no legal requirement to wear a uniform.
Q1: – Do ANY country’s undercover operatives wear a uniform OR carry their arms openly?
Q2: – Who can see the uniform of a pilot in a fighter plane or combatants in a tank?
Q3: – Why are combat fatigues camouflaged?
Q4: – Who can see the uniform on someone controlling a UAV?
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Hamas do not wear uniforms
Israeli Knesset :“You can see on television that most of those who died during the attack were wearing Hamas uniforms, either black or other uniforms of Hamas” Vice Prime Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs Tzipi Livni on December 28, 2008 Israeli Knesset.
Dec 27: IDF operation against terror infrastructure in the Gaza Strip Since this morning, the IDF attacked dozens of targets affiliated with the Hamas terror organization in the Gaza Strip. The targets included command centers, training camps, various Hamas installations, rocket manufacturing facilities and storage warehouses. The vast majority of the casualties are terror operatives, most of whom were wearing uniform and working on behalf of terror organizations.
Q1: – Where is the legal requirement to wear a uniform stated?
Q2: – Is Vice Prime Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs Tzipi Livni a liar?
Q3: – Are the IDF liars?
A search with google reveals that Hezbollah also wear uniforms.
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Qassams only target civilians, it’s terrorism
HRW classify the firing of Qassams as a war crime rather than terrorism, because only the person firing a Qassam can tell what it’s intended target is and it is impossible to say that every rocket fired is aimed purely at civilians. Whoever fires the things is guilty either way. Furthermore, numerous military targets have been hit.
Q: – How can one tell exactly what an un-guided armament is intended to hit?
link to this section
There is never a UNHRC investigation of rockets fired at Israelis
Palestinians admit to it. What’s to investigate?
Q: – Why did the Goldstone report condemn them and call them war crimes?
link to this section
Israel could not protect itself if it ended Occupation:
There is no obligation to unilaterally occupy. Under the instruments of the UN, all Sovereign States have the right to protect their sovereignty against attack by any armed person, group, militia, state or entity, according to the Geneva Conventions and Laws of War, from within it’s Sovereign Territory. They are allowed to make incursions into the enemy’s territory, they may even Declare a Defensive War. More importantly they can lobby the UN/UNSC for a peace keeping force.
Q1: – Given the above facts, why couldn’t Israel protect it’s actual Sovereign territories if it ended occupation?
Q2: – Why would the separation barrier not work just as efficiently if it was built only on Israeli Sovereign territory?
link to this section
Resolution 181 was irrelevant because the Arabs states refused to recognize it. Israel has not defined it’s borders:
Res 181 is still enshrined in the preamble of the Declaration of a Jewish State. Neither party was dependent on the other party forming or refusing to form a state. Such a situation would require an agreement to be signed simultaneously. There was no such requirement. The resolution was non-binding. However, Israel became a Sovereign State on the 14th May 1948. accepting the borders of Resolution 181 (partition) in order to be recognized as a Sovereign State. Israel was recognized by the borders it accepted under 181, by the Majority of the International Community of states, over riding the Arab States objections.
Furthermore, there is this rather revealing letter:
Letter From the Agent of the Provisional Government of Israel to the President of the United States, May 15, 1948
“MY DEAR MR. PRESIDENT: I have the honor to notify you that the state of Israel has been proclaimed as an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947, and that a provisional government has been charged to assume the rights and duties of government for preserving law and order within the boundaries of Israel, for defending the state against external aggression, and for discharging the obligations of Israel to the other nations of the world in accordance with international law. The Act of Independence will become effective at one minute after six o’clock on the evening of 14 May 1948, Washington time.”
Q1: – If Israel was and still is recognized as a Sovereign State, how can it NOT have recognized borders?
Q2: – Bearing in mind that armistice lines are not borders unless they were borders before the armistice and that Israel has never legally annexed ANY territories, if it is a Sovereignty, what are Israel’s actual sovereign territories defined by?
… HOME …
link to this section IN FULL
Captured territory belongs to Israel because the Arabs started the war:
It is Inadmissible to acquire territory by war/force. There are no exceptions. The same rule applies to both defensive and aggressive wars. Laws of War Art. 55. “The occupying State shall be regarded only as administrator and usufructuary of public buildings, real estate, forests, and agricultural estates belonging to the hostile State, and situated in the occupied country. It must safeguard the capital of these properties, and administer them in accordance with the rules of usufruct.”
All civilians live in Sovereign States, States or non-state entities whose respective Governments can change, sometimes for the worse. The regime starting a war might be a dictatorship. The territories of Sovereign states, non-Sovereign states or non-state entities, no matter which government/regime is in power or which power occupies, belong to it’s civilians.
Once a war has started, the Laws of War and the Geneva Conventions apply in order that the war be fought fairly and to protect the innocent. They do not differential between who starts, is winning or losing, finally wins or loses a war, because the civilians might not have voted, or even been able to vote, for the regime Governing the entity who started the war. Furthermore,under the UN Charter they have the right to self determination. It is illegal to subject them to force in order to acquire territory. It must be via agreement/treaty, which is decided by a referendum of the entity’s citizens.
Q1: – What actual Israeli Sovereign territory did the Arab States attack in 1948?
Q2: – Was it an Israeli military installation the Arab states bombed in Tel Aviv?
link to this section IN FULL
Israel was attacked by five armies of the Arab states the day after it Declared Independence: The Jewish Agency launched Plan Dalet in the weeks PRIOR to Declaration. It was a major preemptive military operation which attempted to gain strategic ground in the fear of an ensuing war with the Arab states should the Jewish People’s Council accept the borders of res 181 and Declare a Sovereign state. Villages and towns, both inside (even though the Declaration of Jewish State begs the Arabs to stay), and outside of the territory slated for the new Jewish state were cleansed and razed. (None of this territory was ever annexed to Israel)
By the 15th of May 1948, Israel was a newly Declared Sovereign State, with clearly defined Sovereign territories. The Arab states had every right to protect the territory not under Israel’s newly Declared Sovereignty of 14th May 1948, from the aggression Israel inherited from Plan Dalet, launched in the weeks PRECEDING it’s Declaration. Whether the Arab States formed a state or not of these territories is irrelevant to their right to protect the territory of the entity they represented.
The UNSC did nothing because A) Prior to Declaration, it was a civil war and under the British Mandate B) after Declaration, they knew even as Israeli was Declaring Sovereignty over the borders of Res181, it was already in breach of the borders it was claiming. The Arab states attacked Israeli forces in non-Israeli territory. The Arab states actually launched a defensive war.
Israel was admitted to the UN under the presumption that it would abide by the Charter and Laws of War (both obligatory in their entirety) and withdraw after the war. Israel did not, it illegally claimed the territories it had acquired for strategic position, forbidding the return of civilians who’d fled.
Q1: – What actual Sovereign Israeli territories did the Arab States attack in 1948?
Q2: – Was it an Israeli military installation the Arab states bombed in Tel Aviv?
Q3: – Why was there no UNSC resolution condemning the Arab states if they attacked Israel’s actual Sovereign territories?
link to this section IN FULL
The Arab states attacked Israel with the intention of committing genocide
Arab League Declaration on the Invasion of Palestine May 15, 1948
The Governments of the Arab States emphasise, on this occasion, what they have already declared before the London Conference and the United Nations, that the only solution of the Palestine problem is the establishment of a unitary Palestinian State, in accordance with democratic principles, whereby its inhabitants will enjoy complete equality before the law, [and whereby] minorities will be assured of all the guarantees recognised in democratic constitutional countries, and [whereby] the holy places will be preserved and the right of access thereto guaranteed.
Their declaration must be read very carefully, bearing in mind that at the time it was issued, Israel was already a Sovereignty. Israel was NOT a part of Palestine.
Q : – Why was there no USNC resolution condemning the Arab states if they attacked Israel’s actual Sovereign territories?
IN FULL
… HOME ..
link to this section….IN FULL HERE
The Palestinians already have a state in Jordan. Over 70% of Jordan’s population are Palestinian.
A) Jordan was NEVER part of the British Mandate over Palestine in 1948. It was a recognized as a Sovereign state in 1946 (TransJordan).
B) Only the Palestinians who lived in the territory of Jordan had a right to become citizens of Jordan when it was recognized as a Sovereign state. The Palestinians who DID NOT live in that particular part of British Mandate Palestine in 1946 did not.
C) When Jordan legally annexed the West Bank, in agreement with the Palestinians, it was only as a trustee. (more here) IN FULL HERE
D) A question In 1921 how many Jewish folk lived in the territory that became TransJordan?
link to this section …. IN FULL HERE
The Palestinians could have formed a state when Israel withdrew from Gaza, or in 1947 1948 and at various times since then.
In order to Declare a Sovereign State, an entity must have full control over the borders it wishes to claim as it’s own. The British ended their protective Mandate over Palestine so that Sovereign States could be Declared in Palestine if the parties so wished. It was not mandatory. The same rule applied to East Timor’s Independence from Indonesia. Indonesia had to withdraw from East Timor in order for East Timor to Declare Sovereignty.
Even if they wanted to, the Palestinians were denied the privilege in 1948. By May 14th 1948, under Plan Dalet, the Jewish Agency was already in control of territories allocated for the new Arab State, making it impossible for the Palestinians to Declare Sovereignty.
Israel must withdraw from the Palestinian territories, for the Palestinians to declare Sovereignty.
AN unfortunate ‘facts on the ground’ situation has been created by Israel. It has never annexed the territories it illegally acquired by 1949, it has, of it’s own accord, deceived it’s own citizens for 61 years and created a monumental stumbling block in the path to peace.
Q1: – Where will Israel withdraw to in order that the Palestinians can declare Sovereignty if Israel has not legally annexed any of the territories it has illegally acquired by war since 1948?
Q2: – Why should the Palestinians bear the burden for Israel’s illegal behaviour? IN FULL HERE
link to this section
Gaza is not under occupation:
Under International Law, the Geneva Conventions and UNSC Resolution 242, as the Occupying power Israel is permitted to control what and who goes in and out of Gaza at ALL crossings, Israel is permitted to control Gaza’s airspace and territorial waters. Israel retained the ability to have all of the crossings closed, under the 2005 agreement with Egypt, the Palestinian Authority and Israel, including those between Gaza & Egypt. It exercised this power during Caste Lead. Preventing the civilian population from fleeing a war zone.
Egypt’s cooperation with Israel is tied to the Israeli/Egyptian Peace Treaty. Were Egypt were to open the border crossings without Israeli consent, under the 2005 agreement, Egypt would be in breach the Peace Treaty.
Furthermore, the UNSC said this of Gaza on 8 January 2009, when it adopted UNSC Res 1860
Recalling all of its relevant resolutions, including resolutions 242 (1967), 338 (1973), 1397 (2002), 1515 (2003) and 1850 (2008),
Stressing that the Gaza Strip constitutes an integral part of the territory occupied in 1967 and will be a part of the Palestinian state,
Q1: – If Israel’s ability to have full control over Gaza’s territorial waters, being able to close Gaza off COMPLETELY including the crossings with Egypt, being able to dictate what and who and when anything may or may not enter or exit Gaza from ANY direction, is not occupation, what on earth is it?
Q2: – If Israel is NOT permitted to do the above under International Law, UNSC resolutions, by what authority does it?
Q3: – If ‘territories occupied’ (res 242) are not withdrawn from, they are surely still occupied, no?
Q4: – Why do Israel’s willing propagandistas ignore irrefutable proof of what the UNSC says and continue to spew out their ignorant mantras day after day, over and over?
link to this section
Egypt and Israel could make peace, but the Palestinians refuse:
A carefull read of the Egypt/Israel Peace Agreement shows us Israel was required to withdraw from all of Egypt’s territories before normal relations resumed. (The peace agreements between Israel and Jordan/Egypt accomplished the requirements of UNSC Res 242)
Article II Determination of Final Lines and Zones
1. In order to provide maximum security for both Parties after the final withdrawal, the lines and the Zones delineated on Map 1 are to be established and organized as follows:
…until Israeli armed forces complete withdrawal from the current J and M Lines established by the Egyptian-Israeli Agreement of September 1975, hereinafter referred to as the 1975 Agreement, up to the interim withdrawal line, all military arrangements existing under that Agreement will remain in effect, except those military arrangements otherwise provided for in this Appendix.
Within a period of seven days after Israeli armed forces have evacuated .any area located in Zone A…..
Within a period of seven days after Israeli armed forces have evacuated any area located in Zones A or B…
The Parties agree to remove all discriminatory barriers to normal economic relations and to terminate economic boycotts of each other upon completion of the interim withdrawal.
As soon as possible, and not later than six months after the completion of the interim withdrawal, the Parties will enter negotiations with a view to concluding an agreement on trade and commerce for the purpose of promoting beneficial economic relations.
1. The Parties agree to establish normal cultural relations following completion of the interim withdrawal.
2. They agree on the desirability of cultural exchanges in all fields, and shall, as soon as possible and not later than six months after completion of the interim withdrawal, enter into negotiations with a view to concluding a cultural agreement for this purpose.
Upon completion of the interim withdrawal, each Party will permit the free movement of the nationals and vehicles of the other into and within its territory ….
etc etc
March 26, 1979
The President,
The White HouseDear Mr. President,
I am pleased to be able to confirm that the Government of Israel is agreeable to the procedure set out in your letter of March 26, 1979, in which you state:
“I have received a letter from President Sadat that, within one month after Israel completes its withdrawal to the interim line in Sinai, as provided for in the Treaty of peace between Egypt and Israel, Egypt will send a resident ambassador to Israel and will receive in Egypt a resident Israeli ambassador.”
Sincerely,
Menachem Begin
link to this section
Jordan’s occupation of the West Bank was illegal
Not according to the 1949 Armistice Agreement between Jordan and Israel
Jordanian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, April 3, 1949
Article VI – 1. It is agreed that the forces of the Hashemite Jordan Kingdom shall replace the forces of Iraq in the sector now held by the latter forces, the intention of the Government of Iraq in this regard having been communicated to the Acting Mediator in the message of 20 March from the Foreign Minister of Iraq authorizing the delegation of the Hashemite Jordan Kingdom to negotiate for the Iraqi forces and stating that those forces would be withdrawn.
Q: – What is it people do not understand about “it is agreed”?
Gaza is part of Egypt and the West Bank is part of Jordan:
Egypt and Jordan were already a Sovereign States in 1948. They were both regional powers, with the right and duty under the UN Charter, to protect non-state entities from aggression. Egypt did not annex Gaza or claim it as it’s own. It occupied the territory as per the requirements of the Geneva Conventions, as the Occupying Power, by AGREEMENT with Israel under their respective armistice AGREEMENTS.
The West Bank as it is now officially named, was legally annexed at the request of representatives of the majority of the legitimate citizens of the territory. Jordan’s annexation was as a trustee only by demand of the other Arab states (Session: 12-II Date: May 1950) in keeping with the UN Charter Chapt XI
Unlike Israel’s illegal annexation of East Jerusalem, there is no UNSC resolution against Jordan’s annexation of the West Bank or against Egypt’s occupation of Gaza.
Q1 : – If it was illegal, why is there no UNSC resolution against the Jordanian annexation of the West Bank?
Q2 : – If it was illegal, why is there no UNSC resolution against Egypt’s occupation of Gaza?
Q3 : – If both the territories are represented by the Arab States, why would there be a resolution against them taking temporary possession under the laws of occupation, as per the UN Charter?
Q4 : – If Jordan and Egypt’s occupations of The West Bank and Gaza were illegal, why did Israel AGREE to them remaining as Occupying Powers in the Armistice AGREEMENTs?
link to this section …. MORE …. Maps from the Jewish National and University Library / Zionism & Israel Information Center.
There was no “p”alestine in 1948:
There was an entity called Palestine from the fall of the Ottoman Empire. It was under the protection of the British Mandate over Palestine. All citizens in Palestine had Palestine marked in their passports and papers. It’s citizens, Jewish, Arab, Christian etc, were all Palestinians. (There was no Israel in Palestine pre-1948. Nor was there ever a state of Israel before 1948. There was once a small Kingdom once, for a brief period in history)
From the fall of the Ottoman Empire, Palestine has been whittled away, but it’s name has not been changed. When TransJordan became a state, what remained under the British Mandate over Palestine, was Palestine. When Israel Declared Sovereignty May 14th 1948, what remained was Palestine. People who live in Palestine are ….Palestinians.
Q1: – Why was the British Mandate over Palestine called the British Mandate over PALESTINE?
Q2: – Why, under the British Mandate over Palestine, did the Palstine’s citizens have PALESTINE stamped on their papers?
Q3: – When was Palestine’s name changed since the fall of the Ottoman Empire?
link to this section
The Arab states have done nothing for the Palestinians:
The Arab States have hosted Palestine and Palestinian refugees for 62 years and 42 years respectively. This has cost billions of dollars and has also come at great cost to their societies. They have fought wars on in order to protect the the territory of Palestine, they have adapted their own legislature to accommodate the Palestinians desire to retain their RoR.
Q: – What do you think it costs to host refuge camps for 62 years?
link to this section
The Arabs states have kept the Palestinians as refugees, but Israel absorbed Jewish refugees:
1) Host countries are NOT responsible for the creation of refugees nor are they responsible for refugees RoR. It is the SOLE responsibility of the country of return, for creating refugees by A) driving them out OR B) by NOT recognizing their right to return.
The same laws and rights apply to Jewish folk.
2) Indeed, Jewish folk left and/or fled the Arab states AFTER Plan Dalet began cleansing in April 1948 and subsequent dispossession by Israel in the War of Independence. Some did go to Israel and were granted citizenship. However many didn’t go to Israel but elsewhere, where they took up citizenship. If a refugee takes up citizenship in a new country, they are no longer a refugee and forgo all RoR and compensation.
Q: – How many Jewish refugees are there today, who are not citizens of either Israel or another country?
… HOME …
link to this section
Right of Return is dependent on a Peace Treaty:
Right of Return is an inalienable INDIVIDUAL right and choice, to be recognized at the earliest opportunity.
Q: – If RoR is an individual right and the Geneva Conventions say at the earliest practicable time after the cessation of hostilities, i.e., a cease fire or armistice, what legal basis is there for Israel’s demand that it be tied to a Peace Agreement?
link to this section
The UN is biased against Israel, it has never passed a resolution against the Palestinians
1) The 223 UNSC resolutions against Israel ask no more than the UN Member uphold it’s obligation to the UN Charter, ratified Conventions and Peace Treaties. The majority of the 223 UNSC resolutions re-iterate prior resolutions. (some of these links on Wiki have been bastardised) Only the US Power of Veto has prevented action being taken and allowed Israel to ignore it’s obligations.
Q: – If a country has not adhered to the law or it’s obligations, is it biased to ask again?
2) The Palestinians cannot be part of the United Nations, because they are not a Nation State. The UN cannot censure (pass a resolution against) Non Members – HERE is why!
Q: – Can a football club censure people who are not in the football club?
link to this section
Arafat stole money from the Palestinians
The final audit for the International Monetary Fund says otherwise:
From the NY Times (SUBSCRIPTION REQUIRED)
“In total, the Fund estimates, the amounts diverted from the official budget from 1995 until 2000, when the diversions stopped, may have exceeded $898m. IMF officials say $799m was returned to the PA, with the difference accounted for by investment losses………the bulk of the money diverted from the budget – including all the Swiss bank accounts – was either given back or invested in companies that became part of the PIF, an assertion backed by the IMF”
Since becoming transparent, Palestinian funds have been frozen. Shrewd, yes. Devious, yes. Clever, yes. A thief, no!
Q1: – If you knew your people’s money would be frozen, how would you go about trying to keep it out of the hands of your enemies?
link to this section
Arafat was not even Palestinian
Often cited as though it somehow de-legitimizes him and/or the Palestinians
Q1: – By the same criteria does this mean Golda Meir wasn’t an Israeli?
Q2: – A great many of Israel’s leaders were not born in Israel, does this mean they were not Israeli?
… HOME …
EXAMPLE on Cif. By one PetraMB 13 Oct 09, 3:24pm
link to this section
If part of Israel is “built on stolen land”. It is also true of US, Canada, Australia, and of course for countries consisting of territories conquered by military campaigns, such as e.g. Saudi Arabia:
Because of what the early colonizers did we now have laws forbidding such behaviour.
A) They are not retrospective laws.
B) These countries are no longer colonizing.
C) Parts of Mexico were legally annexed to the USA. The UK legally annexed the Falklands.
D) Australia is no longer dispossessing the Aboriginals, it is addressing land rights issues. The Australian Aboriginals have not asked us to leave. The Canadians have addressed their native rights issues.
E) Israel is still colonizing via illegal settlements, it has never legally annexed any territory and is still in breach of the law.
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Comment by provide — November 4, 2019 @ 10:03 pm
Where is Talknic now when we need it the most?
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Do you consider Queen Noor to be a good source of information? If so, she contradicts almost every word on TransJordanJordan (TransJordan):
TransJordan became a state in 1920. It declared Sovereign Independence in 1946. Only the Palestinian citizens living in the area that became TransJordan had a right to Jordanian citizenship. They are no longer Palestinian but Jordanian. They are not today’s Palestinians. Today’s Palestinians do not have a state in Jordan, they have no citizen rights in Jordan. They are citizens of Palestine.
Jordan relinquished all trustee status over the West Bank in order that the Palestinians can legally declare Sovereignty (unfortunately Israel prevents this). Since relinquishing trustee status, Jordan has also revoked the temporary citizenship of Palestine refugees in order that they maintain RoR to Israel and to the possible future Palestinian state.
First, Queen Noor in her autobiography published in 2003, points out that “every Palestinian” who arrived in Jordan can make a decision to become a Jordanian cities, with full rights” or to keep reugee status. Queen Noor claims Jordan was the only Arab country to offer citienship to Palestinians displaced by conflict in the Middle East.
You need to read an entire chapter to lean King Hussein ddi not “relinquish all trustee status over the West Bank in order that Palestinians can legally declar Sovereignty”: very far from the truth (and as I disgreed with almost every word written by Queen Noor, no matter her brilliance)on page 280 “On July 31, 1988, seven months into the intifada, King Hussein severed Jordn’s ties to the West Bank….”Let them (PLO) have it.” the Kind said to Abu Shaker, then Commander in Chief of the Jordanian army. “let them carry the burden.” “He made it very clear, however, thjat disengagement with the West Bank did not include relinquishing Hashimite trusteeship of the holyh places in Jerusalem.” I will alow readers who wish to learn the truth, as viewed by a brilliant Princeton educated woman, married to King Hussein for more than 20 years at the time of his death, & clearly very “based” (my words) made it clear the King was fed up, the King had paid salaries for etachers and civil servant in The West Bank since 1967, among numerous other means of supporting Palestinains.Arafat and the PLO made the King’s life beyond miserable, repeatedly made agreements with the King to permit hiim to advance the peace talks, then renege on satements mdade to the King. Repeatedly left the King looking like the incompetent politician. Repeatedly took credit for much of the work, financial supprot, and military security provided by Jordan. The book is set in type set 10 and she writes for chapters on the situations leading up to the decision to “Let them (PLO) have it.” King Hussein, according to Queen Noor, had always supported the right for self determination for Palestinians. To say, “todays Palestinians have no cities rights in Jordan appears to be another slap in the face to a King who was the only ARab leader to permit Paelstinians to choose to become citiens of Jordan, IF this was a better decision for an individual Palestinian. The final break with the West Bank was a culmination of insults to the King and had absoutely no basis on your staement that Jordn relinquished all trustee status over the West Bank in order that the Paelstinians can legally declar Sovereignty as the King never thought his trusteeship, approved by the UN, would in any manner interfere with the King desires for the Palestinian people to ultimately reach an agreement with 9Israel, respecting the rights of both. According to Queen Noor, the “story” written above is the story of Arafat and his interpretation of the reason King Hussein finally decided to relinquish all trustee status over the West Bank. King Hussein made the break, after one too many insults, and repeatedly lack of appreciation for the time, work, money, military security, & more King Hussein offered to the WEst Bank from 1967 until he could not take any more abuse.
Comment by Avivahava — September 2, 2015 @ 9:36 am
Link to your sources please … thx
The Jordanian authority over the Holy sites wasn’t a part of the bilateral annexation of the West Bank
Comment by talknic — September 3, 2015 @ 1:55 pm
I note that all of Western Palestine was designated for World Jewry by the following documents:
1. 1920 San Remo Resolution (http://www.cfr.org/israel/san-remo-resolution/p15248), which codified the 1917 Balfour Declaration and set up the Mandate system for dividing the defeated Ottoman Turkish Empire,
2. 1922 Mandate for Palestine (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/palmanda.asp), which designated Palestine for the Jews in which to reconstitute their historic homeland and was ratified by all 52 nations of the League of Nations,
3. 1924 Anglo-American Convention (http://www.justicenow4israel.com/anglo-american.html), by which the U.S. ratified the Mandate for Palestine, incorporating this Mandate word for word,
4. U.N. Charter’s Article 80 (http://www.un.org/en/documents/charter/chapter12.shtml), which preserves the rights of all peoples given them by previous legal instruments.
The U.N.’s 1947 Partition Plan (Resolution 181), which violated the Mandate’s Article 5 and might have given the Jews much less territory than what the Mandate gave them, was never effected because, as a non-binding General Assembly resolution, it functioned only as a recommendation requiring the agreement of both affected parties, Arabs and Jews. (The only binding U.N. resolutions are Security Council resolutions made under Chapter VII.) The Arab rejection of partition, the attacks on Palestinian Jews by Palestinian Arabs as soon as passage of the resolution was announced in November 1947, and the invasion of Israel by neighboring states the day after Israel’s proclamation as a State in May 1948 invalidated the Partition Plan, leaving the Mandate for Palestine firmly in place as the operative document.
I would not accuse anyone of lying to me. Some people are simply misinformed.
Comment by Marjorie Stamm Rosenfeld — June 27, 2015 @ 7:35 pm
Marjorie: the Palestine Mandate did NOT “designate Western Palestine for World Jewry”. Palestine was to be the “COMMON HOME” for Jews and Arabs which would “assure to EACH of these peoples an undisturbed NATIONAL development” and where Arabs and Jews would live “side by side on a footing of PERFECT EQUALITY in all matters”. In other words, a bi-national state. That was what the World Zionist Congress asked for in the Carlsbad Declaration of 1921, and if you read carefully the articles of the Mandate you will see that is what they got.
You have probably never read the Carlsbad Declaration, and that is because the Israeli government and Zionist organizations have done their level best to hide it from their fellow Jews and the rest of the world. When I put it on my website recently [ http://www.religion-science-peace.org/2014/08/27/resolution-of-the-1921-world-zionist-congress/ ] it was the ONLY COPY of the whole resolution on the ENTIRE INTERNET. This is a perfect example of how you have been deceived and lied to.
You are quite right to say that the partition plan was a non-binding resolution. BUT, Israel voluntarily chose to BIND ITSELF to the plan in its Declaration of Establishment by putting the plan at the heart of the Declaration: “ON THE STRENGTH OF THE RESOLUTION OF THE UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY”; by saying that it would implement it; and by limiting the extent of its sovereignty to the territory within the plan borders when asking for recognition by other states: ” the State of Israel has been proclaimed as an independent republic within the frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947″.
The Mandate ended at midnight on May 14, 1948: the State of Israel was declared one minute later. The Mandate did not remain “firmly in place”. Whoever told you that was lying to you.
Marjorie: please read the documents for yourself; read the plain words, putting aside any preconceptions you might have; and you will see that I am right.
Comment by dgfincham — June 28, 2015 @ 9:33 am
I have read the articles of the Palestine Mandate with careful attention. Thanks for pointing me, however, to the Carlsbad Declaration of 1921. The full report of the meetings at Carlsbad, Czechoslovakia is available at https://books.google.ca/books?ei=J7iQVawVw-z5AfnngcgI &id=sXg6AQAAMAAJ&dq=%22Zionist+congress%22&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=%22transjordan%22, though there is a short description of all the meetings in various places, including Carlsbad, at https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism/firstcong.html.
You may not be aware that before Israel, the term “Palestinian” usually referred to the Palestinian Jew. For instance:
The Palestine Post was “an English-language daily established in Jerusalem in 1932 as part of a Zionist-Jewish initiative. In 1950 its name was changed to The Jerusalem Post and it continues to be published under that name to this day.” (http://web.nli.org.il/sites/JPress/English/Pages/Palestine-Post.aspx) “The Palestine Symphony Orchestra was founded in 1936 under the leadership of Bronislaw Huberman. Huberman, a violinist, at first envisioned an international center for the arts, but instead focused on developing a critically acclaimed symphony orchestra. Conditions in Europe had become such that the orchestra could serve as a haven for persecuted Jewish musicians. Many immigration certificates became available, as the orchestra could provide employment for the refugees. The new immigrants themselves provided fresh talent and energy for cultural pursuits in the yishuv.” (https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_ &_Culture/symph.html) And from http://www.israelifrontline.com/2010/11/when-arabs-became-palestinians.html:
“The journal of the Zionist Organisation of America was NEW PALESTINE.”
“The Bank Leumi was the ANGLO-PALESTINE BANK.”
“The Israel Electric Company´s original name was the PALESTINE ELECTRIC COMPANY.”
“There was the PALESTINE FOUNDATION FUND.”
“All these were JEWISH ORGANISATIONS, organised and run by JEWS.”
“In America, the Anthem of the Zionist youngsters sang, ‘PALESTINE, MY PALESTINE’, ‘PALESTINE SCOUT SONG’ and ‘PALESTINE SPRING SONG’.”
The Palestinian Arabs weren’t referred to as “Palestinians” until after the 1967 War, acting on an idea from the Soviets that calling the Arabs “Palestinians” would suggest that the Arabs were the indigenous inhabitants of Palestine (usually referred to as “Southern Syria” before the British once again called it the name the Romans had given it). This site has many quotes throughout history attesting to Jewish habitation of this area: http://www.think-israel.org/mandelbaum.arabsnativesoraliens.html
Palestine had originally been excluded from the large area in which the British had promised the Arabs independence. From The Forgotten Ally, by Pierre Van Paassen, published by Dial Press, 1943:
“When in later years an Arab nationalist movement was born in Palestine and its leaders, in support of their opposition to the Jewish national home, invoked the correspondence that had passed between Sir Henry McMahon and the Sherif of Mecca at the start of the war and incited the peasants to bloodshed and destruction of property by alleging that Britain had broken her pledge to make Palestine an independent Arab country, Sir Henry McMahon, then long since retired from government service, wrote two letters to clarify the earlier understandings. In the first, dated March 12, 1922, addressed to the British government, he said that he had intended to exclude Palestine from the area of Arab independence as fully as the Syrian coastal regions to the north. In a second letter, addressed to the editor of The Times and published by that newspaper on July 23, 1937, he wrote: ‘I feel it my duty to state, and do so definitely and emphatically, that it was not intended by me in giving this pledge (of independence) to King Hussein to include Palestine in the area in which Arab independence was promised. I also had every reason to believe at the time that the fact that Palestine was not included in my pledge was well understood by King Hussein.'” [pp. 115-116]
“Sir Ronald Storrs, who as Oriental Secretary to the High Commissioner (Sir Henry McMahon) handled the Anglo-Arab correspondence, wrote in his [book] Orientations: ‘Palestine was excluded from the promises made to the Arabs before those British (military) operations which gave freedom to so large a proportion of the Arab peoples.'” [p. 116]
“In the year 1937, when Palestine was plunged into chaos and bloodshed by the Arabs, and their leader, Haj Hussein Amin, Mufti of Jerusalem, again invoked the McMahon correspondence, William Ormsby Gore, who was attached to the McMahon staff in 1916, stated in the House of Commons, on July 21, 1937, ‘that it never was in the mind of anyone on that staff that Palestine west of the Jordan was in the area within which the British Government then undertook to further the cause of Arab independence.’ Colonel Lawrence also took the view that Palestine was excluded from the areas in which Britain intended to foster Arab independence and said so in a letter to The Times on September 11, 1919.” [p. 116]
To assess the Carlsbad Declaration of 1921 accurately, it’s necessary to keep some history in mind. This Carlsbad Declaration was issued AFTER Winston Churchill had decided to separate Transjordan (Eastern Palestine) from Western Palestine and had already announced his intention of doing so to the Zionists. This intention, in fact, became Article 25 of the Palestine Mandate, which violated Article 5, effectively separating at least part of what was meant for the Jewish Homeland from the rest. Whether you accept Howard Grief’s belief that all of Palestine was meant for the Jewish homeland or Salomon Benzimra’s belief that the territory was to encompass only the area settled in ancient times by the 12 Tribes (although this included some of Transjordan as well as Western Palestine), removing Transjordan from the territory designated for the Jewish Home was the 1st partition of Palestine and was a successful partition in that it was allowed to stand and the Zionists accepted it. That is what the Carlsbad Declaration indicates.
Thus, the Zionists stated, in the Carlsbad Declaration of 1921, their intention to live peacefully “side by side” with their Arab neighbors in Transjordan. And it was envisioned by the Zionists that all inhabitants would live within the truncated Jewish Home peacefully. It was to be a Jewish State. (Note that the Palestine Mandate gives national rights only to the Jews.) But it was to be a home of all of its citizens, with the religious and civil rights of all inhabitants to be respected and the holy sites of all religions respected and preserved. And this is, in fact, what has happened in Israel within the Green Armistice Lines. The Arabs who stayed have the vote and serve in the Knesset (the Israeli Parliament) and the Judiciary. And they have access to their religious sites, whether these be Christian, Muslim, Jewish or something else. The Jews did not contemplate making war on the Arabs. Sadly, Arab terrorism against Jews In Palestine, instigated primarily by Haj Amin al-Husseini together with Izz ad-Din al-Qassam, became a fact of life beginning in 1919, escalating from that point onward.
The Palestine Mandate has expired. But the national rights accorded the Jewish people in Western Palestine have not expired. Article 80 of the U.N. Charter preserves those rights. (See http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/un/unchart.htm#art80 and http://www.algemeiner.com/2011/09/22/article-80-and-the-un-recognition-of-a-%E2%80%9Cpalestinian-state%E2%80%9D/.) Besides, the Palestine Mandate was termed a “trust,” in fact, “a sacred trust.” What is promised to a beneficiary by a trust doesn’t end or expire when a trustee dies or resigns. The beneficiary still has rights under the trust until he either gets what the trust promises or agrees to forfeit the trust “assets” (property, benefits, or rights).
And now, having spent a great deal of time and energy in replying to the very interesting posts by you, I must turn to other things! So I bid you and all here adieu. I hope that what I’ve written will help in understanding this admittedly complex subject.
Comment by Marjorie Rosenfeld — June 29, 2015 @ 7:17 pm
Marjorie “I have read the articles of the Palestine Mandate with careful attention.”
Article 7 of the LoN Mandate for Palestine tell us you’re full of nonsense. http://wp.me/PDB7k-Q#Mandate It’s only one line, very easy to understand
Furthermore, the Israeli Government plea for recognition proclaimed Israel as ” proclaimed as an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947, and that a provisional government has been charged to assume the rights and duties of government for preserving law and order within the boundaries of Israel, for defending the state against external aggression, and for discharging the obligations of Israel to the other nations of the world in accordance with international law.” http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/decad169.asp It’s only one line, very easy to understand. What was not declared as and not recognized as Israeli was quite simply NOT and is still quite simply not Israeli.
Israel has not since legally acquired by any agreement any further territories. BTW it has been illegal to acquire territory by war since at least 1933, any war!
“Note that the Palestine Mandate gives national rights only to the Jews.”
Bullshit Marjorie,
Don’t go away Marjorie, stay, share some more of your amazing ignorance
Comment by talknic — July 1, 2015 @ 8:27 am
Ms. Rosenfeld:
Jordan certainly does not recognize Israeli sovereignty over the West Bank. From 1950 onwards the area was recognized as part of Jordan, but held in trust for the Palestinians. In 1988 King Hussein returned sovereignty over the area to the Palestinian people.
The Israel-Jordan peace treaty, Appendix I(a).2.A.7 says “The orthophoto maps and image maps showing the line separating Jordan from the territory that came under Israeli Military government control in 1967 shall have that line indicated in a different presentation and the legend shall carry on it the following disclaimer:
“This line is the administrative boundary between Jordan and the territory which came under Israeli military government control in 1967. Any treatment of this line shall be without prejudice to the status of the territory.”
The treaty does not change the status of the West Bank. It has remained the same since 1967, Palestinian territory, under Israeli military occupation. Anyone who tells you different is lying to you.
Comment by dgfincham — June 27, 2015 @ 11:37 am
You seem to be overlooking a few things. However, I shall mention only one:
Israel’s eastern border with Jordan is given in the Israel-Jordan 1994 peace agreement as the middle of the Jordan and Yarmouk Rivers:
“The boundary Line shall follow the middle of the main course of the flow of the Jordan and Yarmouk Rivers.” (http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/peacetreaty.html )
Kindly note that the above reference I have given you is from a Jordanian site, not an Israeli one. It seems, indeed, strange that Jordan recognizes Israel as sovereign in all of Western Palestine and you don’t.
Comment by Marjorie Stamm Rosenfeld — June 26, 2015 @ 3:27 am
Majorie, it says “The boundary line” it does not say ‘the border’.
Second sentence of the Document you so kindly cited says
Israel’s Eastern border in not mentioned anywhere in the entire document
“Kindly note that the above reference I have given you is from a Jordanian site, not an Israeli one. It seems, indeed, strange that Jordan recognizes Israel as sovereign in all of Western Palestine and you don’t.”
Kindly note, you’re full of ziopoop
Comment by talknic — July 1, 2015 @ 8:59 am
[…] response recognizing Israel, was released to the world press in Washington on May 15, 1948. Talknic’s website and my own list several occasions on which Israel publicly acknowledged the existence of these […]
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