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How many times have you read accusations like “Under Jordan’s illegal occupation Jews were prevented access to holy places for 19 years”
Let’s first dispense with the silly “Jordan’s illegal occupation” theory. Under the Israel Jordan Armistice Agreement of 1949, Israel AGREED to Jordan being the Occupying Power over the territories subsequently renamed the West Bank. Jordan agreed to Israel being the Occupying Power over territories under Israeli military control.
Israel Jordan Armistice Agreement of 1949 Article VI
1. It is agreed that the forces of the Hashemite Jordan Kingdom shall replace the forces of Iraq in the sector now held by the latter forces, the intention of the Government of Iraq in this regard having been communicated to the Acting Mediator in the message of 20 March from the Foreign Minister of Iraq authorizing the delegation of the Hashemite Jordan Kingdom to negotiate for the Iraqi forces and stating that those forces would be withdrawn.
and
Article II
2. It is also recognized that no provision of this Agreement shall in any way prejudice the rights, claims and positions of either Party hereto in the ultimate peaceful settlement of the Palestine question, the provisions of this Agreement being dictated exclusively by military considerations.
Exactly how was it illegal?
The claim it was Jordan prevented Jews access to holy places for 19 years is also a fallacy. They prevented Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs! In fact, under the Armistice Agreement it was prohibited for citizens of either opposing state to cross the Armistice Demarcation lines.
Article IV
3. Rules and regulations of the armed forces of the Parties, which prohibit civilians from crossing the fighting lines or entering the area between the lines, shall remain in effect after the signing of this Agreement with application to the Armistice Demarcation Lines defined in articles V and VI.
It is NORMAL for states to restrict the movements of citizens of respective hostile countries and even their own citizens originally from hostile states, curtailing and/or prohibiting their ability to conduct business, buy land etc. Japanese, Germans, Italians, were interned and/or deported by the UK, USA, Australia, during WWII and their assets were frozen. Unless they have opted to take up citizenship in a country other than that of return, thereby losing their refugee status, it is also normal to release and/or allow their return and to unfreeze their assets .
The Israel’s 1948 Emergency Regulations (Foreign Travel) Ordinance still current, prevents Israeli citizens or residents from entering the territory of any entity deemed to be hostile under Israeli law. The Jordanian controlled West Bank was such a hostile entity from 1948 til 1967. So too was Gaza, under Egyptian control.
From 1948 til 1967, Israeli Emergency Regulations prevented citizens and residents, Jews, Christians and Muslims, from worshiping in territories under the military control of Jordan. Naturally Jordan and Egypt did likewise. It is normal behaviour for hostile states.
So what is the point of this Hasbara morsel? How exactly does it effect the legal status of Israel’s Sovereign extent on which UNSC resolutions are based?
Fact is, it doesn’t. It’s just propaganda. Like the claims made about Mark Twain, it is of perhaps historical interest. It has no legal bearing what so ever.
First, find out what isn't true... 
I think Talknic is being hypocritical here.
On the one hand, he complains that CIFWatch banned him, yet he banned Ed Frias.
Frias was putting good points on here.
I think the left is afraid of a debate here.
Its also like this on Mondoweiss and Silverstein’s site.
They only want 1 point of view. Anyone that confront’s their views is banned.
Its sad left wing Jews who run these sites are no different then the Arab Dictators, Moslem Brotherhood and the Ayotollah’s who run Iran. They cant take criticism.
I’m now going to refer to Talknic as Talknic Assad.
Comment by Barry Rosen — June 25, 2012 @ 5:59 pm
Barry Rosen,
I gave fair warning to Ed Frias and allowed his posts to stand. CIF watch didn’t allow anything. No posts at all, no right of reply at all to their false accusations, despite their highfaluting motto. Rather outstanding hypocrisy by a bunch of outstanding buffoons
“Frias was putting good points on here”
He was off topic and spouting Hasbara from propaganda web sites such as PMW, MEMRI, the illegal settlers ‘news’ service Arutz Sheva. He also failed to answer reasonable questions and made false accusations, aka he lied, which is against the basic tenets of Judaism.
Here I deal in sources with provenance, not propaganda or hearsay, nor do I lie or falsely accuse people or express any hatred towards my fellow Jews
So if you’re thinking you can make false accusations or post unsubstantiated twaddle, you will be exposed for what you are for all who come to see.
“I think the left is afraid of a debate here.”
Oh dear Barry, you’ve not included any debate, you silly silly chap. So, if you don’t put up reasoned and well sourced debate, you too will be banned with a suitable explanation attached to your pre-banned posts.
So Barry, answer me in a straightforward manner these three questions, if you dare
1) Is it not true that the US recognized the State of Israel “as an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947″ … to … ” become effective at one minute after six o’clock on the evening of 14 May 1948, Washington time” ?
2) Is it not true that on Friday, 5 March 1948 Rabbi Silver stated to the UNSC, when talking about UNGA res 181 “We feel under the obligation to make our position unmistakably clear. As far as the Jewish people are concerned, they have accepted the decision of the United Nations. We regard it as binding, and we are resolved to move forward in the spirit of that decision. “ ?
3) Is it not true that on the 19 March 1948 the representative of the Jewish Agency, Rabbi Silver, when talking about UNGA res 181, told the UNSC: “The statement that the plan proposed by the General Assembly is an integral plan which cannot succeed unless each of its parts can be carried out, is incorrect. This conception was never part of the plan. Indeed, it is contrary to the statement made by the representative of the United States during the second session of the General Assembly. The setting up of one State was not made conditional upon the setting up of the other State. Mr. Herschel Johnson, representing the United States delegation, speaking in a sub-committee of the Ad Hoc Committee on the Palestinian Question on 28 October 1947, stated, in discussing this very matter in connexion with economic union: “The element of mutuality would not necessarily be a factor, as the document might be signed by one party only.” ?
Oh BTW “I’m now going to refer to Talknic as Talknic Assad.”
Sorry, you won’t be doing it here. Your first and only warning has been issued.
Thx. I look forward to your answers
Comment by talknic — June 25, 2012 @ 7:21 pm
As best I can tell, Talknic was making excellent contributions to CiF.
So the complete opposite of what Frias was doing is doing in here
Meanwhile, I’m not seeing you take an interest in what’s on this site concerning the topic … probably because Talknic is 100% correct in the things he says.
Comment by William Smart — June 25, 2012 @ 7:37 pm
Hi William
Barry was actually talking about CiFWatch
My CiF banning was a long and concerted effort, eventually succeeding based on a cleverly worded and completely false accusation.
Comment by talknic — June 25, 2012 @ 7:47 pm
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2012/03/hamas-celebrates-10th-anniversary-of.html
Hamas celebrates 10th anniversary of Netanya Passover massacre
March 27, 2012
30 Israeli civilians were massacred in this attack, including 20 who were over the age of 70.
How does the Israeli left support such evil Arabs?
Maybe I missed it, but I don’t recall seeing any Arabs protesting against this attack, or writing anguished op-eds about how a fellow Muslim could have done such a thing. No Arab groups popped up on college campuses calling for solidarity with Jews against terror. There were no UN resolutions condemning the massacre.
But there was a PA-sponsored soccer tournament in Tulkarem named after the suicide bomber.
Keep on topic or you’ll be banned
Thx. talknic
Comment by Ed Frias — June 24, 2012 @ 12:00 am
I’m sorry if criminals celebrate crime, they don’t do it with my support.
Meanwhile, Israeli Prime Ministers are directly implicated in, and celebrate, much bigger terrorist crimes.
In fact, Israeli Prime Ministers are still celebrating much bigger crimes eg Benjamin Netanyahu in July 2006 joined former terrorists from Irgun and attended a 60th anniversary celebration of the King David Hotel bombing.
The British Ambassador in Tel Aviv and the Consul-General in Jerusalem protested, saying “We do not think that it is right for an act of terrorism, which led to the loss of many lives, to be commemorated.” They also protested against a plaque that claims that people died because the British ignored warning calls, saying it was untrue and “did not absolve those who planted the bomb.”
The plaque laid by the Israelis reads “For reasons known only to the British, the hotel was not evacuated.”
Who are you to complain about crime, when your friends glorify much bigger crimes?
Comment by William Smart — June 24, 2012 @ 3:57 pm
Just a few questions:
Name an Israeli President before May 15th 1948.
Did you ever hear of David, Solomon, Saul, Joshua etc.
These were Israeli leaders who governed and controlled Israel.
There was never in history a state called Palestine governed by the Palestinians.
Fahti Hammad said it himself.
PALESTINIAN’S ARE INVENTED PEOPLE.
Hamas Minister of the Interior and of National Security Fathi Hammad Slams Egypt over Fuel Shortage in Gaza Strip, and Says:
“Half of the Palestinians Are Egyptians and the Other Half Are Saudis”
Al-Hekma TV (Egypt) – March 23, 2012 – 03:09
HIS VIDEO IS ON YOUTUBE
Comment by Ed Frias — June 23, 2012 @ 11:51 pm
Ed Frias
“Did you ever hear of David, Solomon, Saul, Joshua etc.”
None were “president”s of a sovereign nation state, the concept didn’t even exist in the time of the Kingdom of David. Your denial of the existence of the Palestinians denies the longest part by far of Jewish History in the region, from the Roman era to May 15th 1948, as Palestinian Jews
Furthermore “David, Solomon, Saul, Joshua etc” are irrelevant to today’s International Law, the UN Charter, International Convention and conventions Israel has ratified. All of which the modern State of Israel agreed to uphold on declaration, recognition and acceptance into the UN.
“There was never in history a state called Palestine governed by the Palestinians”
So what? It’s irrelevant to the Internationally recognized extent of Israel’s sovereignty under International Law today.
Never the less, there has been a provisional State of Palestine from at least 1920 according to the LoN Covenant (Article 22)and the LoN Mandate for Palestine (First sentence). Only the area renamed ” the State of Israel” on May 15th 1948 has had an Internationally recognized change of status. Palestine and what remains of it has never had a name change for over 2,000 years and now the majority of the International Community of Nations recognize Palestine as being a non-independent State.
“Fahti Hammad”
Memri TV? Can you corroborate the Memri propaganda translation? Thx…. I’ll wait ..
BTW Even if Memri is accurate, the opinion of one person does not change the LoN Covenant, the LoN Mandate for Palestine or the statements by the Government of Israel May 22nd 1948 where they recognize “Palestine” as a separate entity.
Sorry Ed Frias, either bring verifiable and factual information to support your debate. Until such time you’re relegated to the trash bin
Comment by talknic — June 24, 2012 @ 8:12 am
jordan isnt even a valid country.the british along with france gave ISRAELS land to them in the 1948 declaration by Israel of becoming a nation.syria,jordan,lebanon all will be wiped out by the Jews in the near future.even egypt will be destroyed.. there never was a people called palestinians until the uproar over Israel.God gave the land to the Jews and he is about to give it (ALL) of it back to them.Dont believe in God,hide and watch!!!
Comment by jerry sweet — June 16, 2012 @ 4:29 pm
Hi jerry,
My your Hasbarrow really is quite full of Zionist sh*te.
” ISRAELS land” There was no ‘israel’ in 1946.
BTW Jordan became a country by the same process as Israel, by a declaration of Independence, BEFORE partition in 1947 … BEFORE Israel was declared 1948. You don’t appear to be very good at dates.
Read the LoN Mandate for Palestine, Article 7.
“all will be wiped out by the Jews”
Threatening to wipe other folk off the map is so cute..
“there never was a people called palestinians”
That’s right! They’re Palestinians pal, like Arabs are actually and; all Palestinian citizens were Palestinian, from at least the Roman era til 1948, including the Jews who’d actually stayed connected to the land of Palestine.
God was noticeably absent during the Holocaust. Say…. have you any actual proof God exists or ever existed?
Just a few questions:
What was the Israeli currency before it got changed to the Shekel?
What stamps did Israel have before May 1948?
Name an Israeli President before May 15th 1948
Show us and Israeli passport before May 15th 1948
Thx …. I’ll wait …
Comment by talknic — June 17, 2012 @ 1:16 am
Jerusalem has had a Jewish population majority since the late 1850s – that’s 130 years already, before ‘Palestinianism’ was invented:
Jews were expelled from East-Jerusalem by the Jordanian occupation at 1948. They lived in East-Jerusalem for thousands of years. They returned to their homes after Jordan defeat in 1967.
talknic is upset that the Arabs can no longer ethnic cleanse the Jews from their historic capitol.
ISRAEL which is defending itself against Pan-Arabism, Arab imperialism and Arabization of the Middle East – that is the “problem you dont like.
The real problem is global Arab/Moslem insistence to spread hate, violence, wars, terrorism, lies, false accusations against Jews and reducing Jews to subhumans or second class citizens – slaves or servants – without any human rights.
Ed Frias has been banned for false accusations, attempted smearing and failing to provide verifiable documentation for his claims
Comment by Ed Frias — June 23, 2012 @ 11:55 pm
Ed Frias
“that’s 130 years already, before ‘Palestinianism’ was invented:”
Strange, the Jewish National and University Library say you’re full of bullsh*te!
“Jews were expelled from East-Jerusalem by the Jordanian occupation at 1948. They lived in East-Jerusalem for thousands of years. They returned to their homes after Jordan defeat in 1967.”
You did read the article?
A) It’s normal behaviour for hostile states to inter or expel foreign Nationals or possible collaborators in times of war.
B) The Israeli Emergency Law of 1948 (still in force today) expressly forbade Israeli citizens and residents from entering the territory of any hostile regime. The West Bank, under Jordan was a hostile entity until 1967. On Israel becoming the “Occupying Power” over the West Bank, it is illegal for Israelis, Jewish or Non-Jewish, to illegally settle in “territories occupied”
C) If they ‘returned’ to their homes, why is the Israeli Government now SELLING them land and new homes where they did not exist before?
“talknic is upset that the Arabs can no longer ethnic cleanse the Jews from their historic capitol”
Oh? Really?
Smearing and false accusations are not tolerated here. BYE!!
Comment by talknic — June 24, 2012 @ 8:42 am
I don’t believe that Jordan did block Jews from accessing the Western Wall between 1950 and 1967.
Have a look at this in the talk pages of the Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict/Archive_15#Western_Wailing_Wall
Needless to say, this evidence was ignored, the hasbarists didn’t have any discussion about it and they still claim that the Jews were blocked.
Wikipedia editor Daedalexa says –>> This article states: “When Jerusalem was under Jordanian control, no Jews were allowed to visit the Western Wall.” without any reference to back this up — however this is claimed in many places.
When I was living in Beirut in 1963, my girlfriend and I visited Syria, Jordan, and Israel. (Very exciting time b/c Kim Philby had just ‘disappeared’ from Beirut with our Brit friends amazed he kept secrets although an alcoholic, and Christine Keeler was making headlines.) We went to Jerusalem (sorry to say I had not read much history about the region before going there, my excuse is that I was very young and not enough time) to visit the holy places. We stayed in the Lutheran hostel. We came across a place, high wall, with some men in what looked like top hats, hair in ringlets, citing/chanting?, and swaying toward it. As you can imagine, to us this was a strange unexpected sight so we asked what was happening. That’s how we learned it was the wailing wall, they were praying, and that dress was of orthodox Jews.
That’s why when it is claimed Jews were not allowed to visit I know it was not true, UNLESS the law said they cd not visit and they just did and the Jordanians allowed it.
At that time it was also the regulation that if you had an Israeli stamp in your passport, you cd not enter some Arab countries. What was done to get around this was a loose piece of paper was put in your passport obligingly by the Israeli authorities, and you simply took it out going into the Arab country. Then the Jordanians didn’t see it (even when it’s obvious that’s where you were coming from) so no rule was broken. Smiles from both Israelis and Jordanians b/c we all knew what was going on.
In view of this, perhaps this sentence shd be qualified or rewritten: “When Jerusalem was under Jordanian control, apparently officially Jews were not allowed to visit the Western Wall although some did.” That of course, depends on someone finding that official ‘rule’ wch of course we were not aware of, but I’m giving the benefit of the doubt. Daedalexa (talk) 04:36, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
Comment by William Smart — June 10, 2012 @ 7:33 pm
Hi William,
Daedalexa’s own experiences are not permitted under Wikipedia’s editorial policies
From the Talk Page: Following Daedalexa’s comment
The source added was to: Sela, Avraham. “Jerusalem.” The Continuum Political Encyclopedia of the Middle East. Ed. Avraham Sela. New York: Continuum, 2002. pp. 491–498.
Not exactly a neutral observer
—-
An area I haven’t looked at in depth are the accusations Jordan demolished all or most of the Synagogues in the old city, allegedly out of hatred for Jews. When armed people use religious buildings for military purposes, they may be attacked. It seems the Haganah alone used at least three Synagogues for military purposes.
The Nissan Bek and Tiferet Yisrael Synagogues and the Hurva Synagogue (NOTE: I really do not recommend Wikipedia).
How damaged were these buildings by battle? Were the remains safe? Were they of possible advantage to the enemy? Israel regularly demolishes/d anything it consider/ed/s to be of military advantage.
If war damaged buildings aren’t structurally safe, their subsequent demolition is practical and commonplace. “The ‘large Synagogue’ was the Hurva, the most prominent landmark in the Jewish Quarter. Badly damaged in this attack,it would be finished off six days later” British clergyman, Hugh Jones Diary
Furthermore when the Torah is removed a building is no longer a synagogue.
Of course demolition would not apply to all and no doubt there was a certain amount of wanton and unintended destruction. Then there’s the discrepancy in numbers:
Wikipedia:
Again Wikipedia:
Again Wikipedia:
Everywhere you look in the Israeli narrative, there seems to be contradiction.
Comment by talknic — June 10, 2012 @ 8:43 pm
>>>> Daedalexa’s own experiences are not permitted under Wikipedia’s editorial policies <<<<
I accept that one persons tourist observations cannot possibly be accepted as "proof" and hence, don't deserve a place in the Wikipedia article.
But I strongly suspect that this tourist's observations are genuine and Jews were never banned from the Western Wall. Holders of Israeli passports were perhaps/likely banned by Jordan – but they were already banned by Israel.
In any case, it's a vicious and uncalled for and fraudulent accusation to accuse the Jordanians of being antisemitic over this particular subject.
Comment by William Smart — June 16, 2012 @ 5:26 pm
Israel will soon take back all of their land.syria,jordan,lebanon,all the way to the euphrates river in iraq.egypt will be destroyed.the arab thugs are squatters.there never was a land of palestine.it originally was the land of canaan.but because the jews disobeyed GOD, they were not allowed to enter the land and the canaanites moved in,then GOD had Israel go into the land and rid it of the squatters.they disobeyed again and were dispersed thruout the world until may 1948.now God is about to clean house again.humans are made from dirt.God lives in fire.any more stupid comments about ISRAEL not allowed to exist in their own land.just watch and see
Comment by jerry sweet — June 16, 2012 @ 4:19 pm
You seem to be arguing that the Zionists in the West Bank should behave the same as the Nazis in Poland.
I’d support Talknic simply deleting your post as if it never happened. Antisemites like you obviously have nothing to add.
Comment by William Smart — June 16, 2012 @ 5:20 pm
PS – and then deleting what I’ve said.
Comment by William Smart — June 16, 2012 @ 5:20 pm
Hi WIlliam,
People ought at least get a chance to see just how insane the jerry sweets of the world are.. It’s funny
Comment by talknic — June 17, 2012 @ 3:08 am
The whole topic of “from the Nile to the Euphrates” is genuine and deeply embedded in Zionism. But respectable Zionists quickly realised how bad it makes them look. Old Jerry has simply not been taking his medications.
The last and most public time a Zionist called for this huge “Eretz” (greater) Israel happened in 1947, when Rabbi Fischmann, member of the Jewish Agency for Palestine went before the U.N. Special Committee of Enquiry on 9 July and declared: “The Promised Land extends from the River of Egypt up to the Euphrates, it includes parts of Syria and Lebanon.” See http://ia600304.us.archive.org/5/items/TheZionistPlanForTheMiddleEast/MicrosoftWord-TheZionistPlanForTheMiddleEas1.pdf
But I suppose you’re right, don’t delete Jerry’s words. They’re real and dangerous, people need to be reminded.
Comment by William Smart — June 17, 2012 @ 8:11 am
http://www.humanevents.com/2011/07/16/73-of-palestinians-believe-jews-should-be-killed-wherever-they-hide/
73% of Palestinians Believe Jews Should Be Killed Wherever They Hide
By: jhoft
7/16/2011
—–
Ed Frias has been banned for being off topic, false accusations, attempted smearing and failing to provide verifiable documentation for his claims, cherry picking the Hamas Charter
Comment by Ed Frias — June 23, 2012 @ 11:54 pm
Ed Frias
Cherry picking the Hamas Charter is a favorite ploy of Israeli propagandists. There is a caveat in the Hamas Charter which you will never see on an Israeli propaganda site.
There is no such caveat in the Lukid Charter
Comment by talknic — June 24, 2012 @ 9:07 am
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/151758
PA Religious Official Publicly Calls for Genocide of Jews
PA’s principal religious leader presents the killing of Jews by Muslims as a religious Islamic goal.
Elad Benari
1/16/2011
—–
Ed Frias has been banned for being off topic, false accusations, attempted smearing and failing to provide verifiable documentation for his claims, linking to propaganda sites, cherry picking the Hamas Charter
Comment by Ed Frias — June 23, 2012 @ 11:59 pm